posted on March 20, 2001 10:41:16 PM new
ebaY says it ALREADY bans them - but there really is not anything in their user agreement that currently does - though if they extract out bits and pieces they can cobble something that remotely resembles a ban on anything that does not directly sell the product currently being offered. Of course at the current rate, sellers will soon lose their ability to have ANYTHING on their auction including a web page link.
ebaY is going to change the language of their user agreement to "clarify" the ban on mailing list sign up links - since it is currently "unclear". It will be interesting to see if they give 30 day notice, or if they just say - this was already the rule, we just did not enforce it - like they have on the past.
We suggest that sellers include a link in EVERY email to their mail/customer list, and that they do not answer ANY questions about anything other than the specific item being auctioned without getting the questioner to sign up - so you have written documentation that the person is YOUR customer NOT ebaYs!!!
-Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry
http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
[ edited by rnrgroup on Mar 20, 2001 10:42 PM ]
posted on March 20, 2001 11:24:44 PM new
Thank you for giving us a heads up on this. I already send out a link with my email but I didn't realize Ebay would carry things this far.
I am sending all information I gather like this to FTC. They seem very interested in Ebay's latest activities. Clearly, Ebay can no longer claim to be only a venue!
posted on March 21, 2001 02:26:57 AM new
Wow! That is interesting. Mailing lists have always been the loophole in eBay's "no spam" policy. For eBay, seller mailing lists are even worse than a link to the seller's home page. I wonder why it took eBay so long to ban this.
I agree sellers need to offer a mailing list option to every customer. I'm a member of several lists, and I appreciate getting notes from my sellers (though obviously I don't buy something every time).
posted on March 21, 2001 08:08:19 AM new
Of course, some here already said it was inevitable. This is clearly not about spam anymore. I hate any unsolicited (e)mail marketing or telemarketing, but opt-in mail lists (and links to sign up) are not spam, so disallowing them in a "spam" policy is misleading IMO -- or sort of like "pork barrel" riders on government bills and how they make voting for or against a bill more complex (and harder for observers to interpret).
Even on the "email questions" point, I thought the better compromise was to restrict contact to buyers to the sellers of auctions they bid on, and let sellers decide (give them an option box on) whether they would rather have buyers contacting them through the web form or still allow retrieval of their (the seller's) email address.
It's not quite auctions, but in B&M antique malls, with multiple sellers under one roof, some of them have their own business outside the mall, yet can (at least at some malls) display a small stack of their cards or fliers. I've used them on at least a couple occasions; but if anything, have come back to those particular malls even more, perhaps because those malls seem like even more useful than just the items that happen to be under their roofs (in giving me the choice of being able to contact a particular seller, if they put out contact information).
Obviously, the relationship of whom is who's customers is changing on eBay. Used to be that buyers were the customers of sellers, and sellers were the customers of eBay. Now that picture looks very muddy. I never thought the term customer should extend to sending unsolicited (e)mail or telephone calls not related to the transaction at hand, but if the customer wishes further contact with the seller, I do not believe it should be impeded, because it only increases the usefulness of the "venue" and probably leads to continued purchases, at least IMO. Again, the real measure of what commercial email is spam or not is about whether the commercial email was unsolicited or not. Opt-in lists imply the buyer has to solicit the additional, general contact, so true opt-in lists are not spam.
Of course, some AW posters see it as not muddy at all, but very clear evidence eBay's main interest is in further monetizing the buyer base and directing them at the larger retail sellers. Frankly, this buyer does not know, but is not interested in the big name sellers being on eBay, and am disgusted with some of the other things done that might perhaps be along those lines, like trying to sell me out to DoubleClick, or ignoring or overriding -- the Notification preferences of many members.
While eBay decries spam or "spam," they've been seemingly testing the waters with their own direct marketing efforts, including outright spam in the cases of overriding and ignoring members' own privacy settings, and the fact that welcome.ebay.com is really a direct marketing company (Annuncio) eBay brought in (another example of how direct marketers and companies work behind the scenes, probably, IMO, because most people would be much faster to complain if they knew every occasion this is done).
In my eyes, while I appreciate that my information is now harder to retrieve, the "ask the seller a question" was a mixed change overall (though the recent personal contact info retreival changes seem more completely positive), and they took huge steps backwards with the Notification flap, and are misusing the current 'Net meaning of "spam" if they are using to restrict opt-in lists.
I almost deleted the last line of my .sig a few weeks ago, as too stale, but somehow, events recently have reinvigorated it yet again.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on March 21, 2001 09:20:02 AM new
"I am sending all information I gather like this to FTC. They seem very interested in Ebay's latest activities. Clearly, Ebay can no longer claim to be only a venue!" - Exactly. Although that claim was a joke to begin with.
posted on March 21, 2001 09:45:01 AM new
I don't have a mailing list link - I do mine manually through my Invoices included with the package - if the buyers want in they email me and join up... so hopefully I'm still OK that way... *crossfingers*
I think they're talking about not allowing Opt-in email sign-up lists on your auction page, NOT in your EOA notices. Personally, I think putting a mailing list on your auction page is a bit pushy since you're asking folks to add their email address to your list BEFORE they become your customer. I can see where eBay would have a problem with this. I think it looks unprofessional and tacky and you don't need to do this as long as eBay allows you to put your email link on your auction page.
However, you most definitely should be able to put the Opt-in mailing list in your EOA emails OR in any correspondence you have with a customer as long as you didn't initiate the contact.
I read on another auction related chat board that someone had received a warning about having an email address signup on her auction page and she had 24 hours to remove it because it wasn't allowed. BTW, almost all of the auctions I found when searching eBay for address signups were by sellers using Andale auction management services.
posted on March 21, 2001 09:56:24 AM new
Ebay may need to polish their surfboard right now as they're riding quite the wave, but eventually that wave will hit the shore!
posted on March 21, 2001 10:24:26 AM new
I wonder how long it will be before there's some type of class action lawsuit against eBay. They are trying harder and harder to corner the market on everything related to online auctions.
Every day they step further over the line with interference in sellers' businesses. All the site changes that render other auction software useless, not allowing direct contact between sellers and buyers, the list goes on and on.
How long will it be before they block "remote linking" to images you store on your own web space so that you're required to use their pitiful picture hosting service?
posted on March 21, 2001 10:29:08 PM new
ebaY is making Andale change the link. It will be interesting to see how they handle the folks who pay for their API and have similar services. In several cases, ebaY approved these mail/customer list features, and are now going back on them.
ABSOLUTELY - everyone should put a mail/customer option in every email. ebaY can not control what goes in your email - after auction or otherwise - then they WOULD be getting on sticky ground. They are already way beyond venue status.
We say mail/customer list - because nothing says you have to MAIL anything to anyone. If someone agrees to join your customer list, they become YOUR customer, not ebaYs, so any future deals, notices, etc are legal -both ebaY legal and probably court of law legal. ebaY is trying to do something illegal - having an exclusive agency contract without the contract.
ebaY SAYS that people were signing up for these person to person mail/customer lists, and then those list holders were selling the lists to SPAMMERS. Another disgusting lie by ebaY, when even the most stupid amongst us knows that the robot writers can STILL harvest email addys off ebaY cause they are MUCH smarter than the ebaY programmers. Nothing like using fascist people management tools - sow suspicion between users and intimidate them through fear to do what you want them to. ebaY has come a long way from Pierre's 'most people are good and honest philosophy'. Of course it will be ebaY that ultimately suffers, as users will not have the least hesitation to do off ebaY sales after all the stuff ebaY is pulling.
posted on March 22, 2001 08:32:10 AM new
If anyone has ever managed or owned a retail space in a shopping mall and had to deal with "Mall Management" you'll recognize the attitude and mindset that Ebay has adopted.
posted on March 22, 2001 10:35:07 AM new
This note is in regards to the writer who objects to a mailing list harvesting names BEFORE those folks become a actual customer. I maintain about 400 mailing lists on any and all subjects i run across in my mostly paper collectibles on eBay. If I sell an article or book on, say, whaling or Florida or Cherokee Indians, the person seeing that item can click thru and be added to an alert list, to be apprised should any other item ever come online by me on that subject. Every day i get more and more people selecting to be added to those lists who are NOT paid customers. When an item (on eBay auctions ONLY) does come up, all persons on that list get a link sent to their mailbox. Occasionally someone asks to be taken off the list and that is instantly done. I have never and would never use these names for an offline sale; auctions are too much fun and too surprising in their results to ever ask a certain amount offline instead of chancing the amount going higher thru the auction process. I can't believe eBay wants my/their income to drop by eliminating such a well-oiled machine designed to pull in bidders who may no longer be looking at eBay auctions on a daily/weekly basis. No matter where these people go or whether or not they are still in the eBay community, my alert letter 'pulls them back in.'
posted on March 22, 2001 11:09:21 AM new
BidBusters you are absolutely RIGHT!!! ebaY in its paranoia that a sale might happen off their site, is actually cutting off its nose to spite its face. WHO brought these people to ebaY in the first place? Does ANYONE think it was ebaY?
In addition we hold the opinion that ebaY acting in this way is having the exact opposite effect than that which it is seeking. To prevent off ebaY sales, ebaY through its obnoxious and controlling actions is making sellers, who in the past would have never considered making an off ebaY sale, into sellers who would do it in a heartbeat. ebaY is not looking at WHO their sellers are - and if they have gotten to a point where they no longer care WHO those people are, but thinks they can have their cake and eat it too, then they are deluding themselves.
Where the heck are all you VOICES folks? Are you not communicating to ebaY what kind of psycological effect these stupid policies have on YOU??? Or is it that ebaY, with a show of arrogance equivalent to that which is taking Yahoo Inc into oblivion, just no longer cares and feels it can do as it will and get away with it.
posted on March 22, 2001 11:12:53 AM new
Generally speaking. The more restrictive a community is, the less inviting it is. Keep a file of your customers and simply email them with your own offers from time to time. Put it in your EOA email to them and ask if they mind -take it from there.
posted on March 22, 2001 11:29:12 AM new
...but I do not WANT a list of only customers; I want to throw a net to catch the interested parites too ! In the real world, a brick and mortar doesn't rely only on the people already in the shop, but a combination of those folks and others who are walking by, or seeing my ads. Sending a quick e-mail to interested parties who have yet to buy is not spam because they opt for this service. i have often thought eBay should consider setting up a service or hire out to others and set up a tracking system to alert potential opt-in customers on a wide array of items in their fields of interest. I said WIDE, not their personal search.
posted on March 22, 2001 11:45:36 AM new
Where the heck are all you VOICES folks? Are you not communicating to ebaY what kind of psycological effect these stupid policies have on YOU??? Or is it that ebaY, with a show of arrogance equivalent to that which is taking Yahoo Inc into oblivion, just no longer cares and feels it can do as it will and get away with it.
Well I did have enough of them and I had them begin to terminate my account.
My 1st email to them
Hello,
I would like to deregister my account. For the past few months the site as a whole has been going into the wrong direction. Today alone I had to process over 40 FVF credits which is untolerable to put up with as a seller, not to mention bid retractors at the last moment, and nasty emails from other users. Please email me the information.
Their responce to this was:
Hello,
We're sorry that you want to leave our Community, but before it's final,
is there anything we can do to change your mind? Please be aware this
is a serious step: not only will you be blocked from eBay, and your
contact information concealed, but your Feedback Profile will no longer
be available.
If there are any unresolved problems, if you feel like we didn't do all
we could for you - please give us a chance to turn the situation around.
Just reply to this email and tell us why you want to leave. We'll do our
best to fix the situation.
If you still feel like you want to leave us, just reply to this email
restating your request and I will sadly close your account permanently.
My responce was
Hello,
I made my opinions known in my first email. When deadbeats retract, and/or dont pay it loses me money, and when you refuse to do anything about it then I am out of here. Out of 100 auctions I had 43 deadbeats, and that is absolutely unacceptable for business. I have moved to the free auction sites, and I am doing just as well on them, and they listen to my needs. Please close my account.
And their last email, funny they never mentioned anything I wrote, some help huh?
Hello,
Your final request to be unregistered has been received. You will
receive a separate email notification when the process begins, with a
detailed description of the entire automated procedure.
posted on March 22, 2001 12:04:36 PM new
I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment.
I run a list for a nonprofit. It's an announcement list, one way.
People sign up, but they sometimes become confused, forgetful etc and want off the list. Getting folks unsubbed quickly and easily is the name of that game.
The listbot links I have seen on some auctions/me pages aren't that easy for non-list savvy people to use.
Also, I got on a list (she just started emailing me) of a seller who started by announcing her auctions then her off ebay sales. Which I won't argue with, because I know that is the REAL reason they want to ax it.
BUT, after a few weeks it became apparent that her emails were tied to not just the catagory she sold in, but her political spin on certain amendment rights which boiled down to propaganda.
It was repellent to me.
Now all I did was email the stupid woman with "remove" in the body.
Magnify the incoming email by 10 or so, forget the content. It ends up becoming spam even to dedicated collectors.
I have a bunch of feedback, I buy in about 4-5 catagories on a regular basis with emphasis on three.
I already get emails from nonebay dealers with new stock, never mind trying to muscle through emails from ebay sellers.
I just think that the bulk of email that customers will be opening up themselves to is too much.
On egroups there are announcement/seller lists. Do you see how many folks are actually subscribing to that stuff, I mean besides sellers?
I agree that marketing is trying to "net" potential customers, rather than preaching to the converted.
Beyond that I don't have a solution, I just don't think email is it.
If it were, all those spam mailings we get would be from companies we do business with on a regular basis. They know it doesn't drag customers in.
syntax edit
[ edited by capriole on Mar 22, 2001 12:07 PM ]
posted on March 22, 2001 12:23:57 PM new
The lists I'm on are with my wholesale distributors. I like hearing about their new products asap.
Having said that, eBay is banning unilaterally any type of mailing list. That includes newsletters, etc. There are plenty of non-promotional newsletters with good content.
The Internet is geared towards information, and vendors who essentlally buy a page on eBay are being chained down by eBay's refusal to allow ANY kind of link within a seller's ad. No email links, no links to the seller's home page, no mailing list links.... The only "external" links that are allowed are to pages which supplement the auction.
eBay needs to admit that they are supporting (and being supported by) online vendors who have every right to promote their own businesses.
posted on March 22, 2001 12:42:19 PM new
Here eBay, read this, maybe you'll learn something
Taken from epier:
ePier is about creating a safe and dependable free eCommerce portal where you can safely sell and buy from others within the community. We are not about generating more company profits over conveniance. At ePier, you are free to communicate with your buyers and sellers.
We believe, if two consenting parties wish to email one another, we, nor any other site has the right to disallow you from communicating with them. We do not own your email address. And frankly, anyone who presumes to restrict your day to day email has gone far beyond just providing you a service. As a senator once said, a whiff of facism is in the air. We want you to buy and sell without fear of any retribution.
At ePier, there is no greed or avarice to take more and more of your money by always standing between you and others. ePier is all about putting you first, and helping you build your business. ePier is here to help you sell and buy freely, not to hamper and disrupt open flow of trade information.
posted on March 22, 2001 12:47:32 PM new
My trading newsletter is not to promote my auctions - its to inform some of my previous customers and others (I've had some users forward my newsletter to other collectors and they've joined in) of new items available in the market - NOT through me, just in general.
I.E. A new set of TOPPS Pokemon cards was released recently - one of the users emailed the info to me, I forwarded it on to the rest of the newsletter group.
Another good example is when new Pokemon plush are released - everyone wants to know these things ASAP so they can start watching for them - both locally and on the auction scene.
I also use it to facilitate trading between collectors - I'm almost always looking for cards I need to complete sets, and so are a lot of other collectors.
My list is opt-in through my EOA notices originally and now through my invoices I include with my merchandise. My newsletters all state that they can REMOVE or UNSUBSCRIBE at any time simply by letting me know (I handle my newsletter personally - no listbots for me).
I'm really upset that Ebay wants to prevent me from having a continuing relationship outside of their "venue" with my customers. I want to see some policy write-ups on this ASAP - because I do NOT want to give up my newsletter group and I know they don't either... If I have too I'll start a listing through my website and they can re-opt-in that way.. unless we're not allowed to have our own websites in addition to not being allowed to have mailing lists..
posted on March 23, 2001 12:49:27 AM new
Just remember, you can have a customer database and NEVER send those customers an email BUT having the list protects both seller and buyer from ebaY NARU, since you can prove with written documentation that your relaitonship exists independent of ebaY.
Not EVERY customer list has to be a mailing list. You could also put an announcement list on a site like Topica, set all the subscribers to OFF so no messages are sent and just post your messages on the site with the messages available to all. Those who want to look see can, but you don't clutter up mailboxes. There are LOTS of ways to skin this cat - be in compliance with ebaYs stupid rules, and continue to do business whilst keeping your customers happy.
As to leaving ebaY - those are automatic form letters - it takes approximately 5 emails to leave ebaY - and we would wager they NEVER subtract you from their total number registered. -Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on March 23, 2001 06:25:49 AM new
I have yet to see an Ebay announcement or ANYTHING in the user agreement banning mailing lists or newsletters that are 100% user opt-in.
Is this something they are going to be announcement or an unannounced "rule" like the Paypal Surcharge?
posted on March 23, 2001 06:07:09 PM new
It will remain unannounced and unwritten - because ebaY says it always existed - even though it doesn't. The language in the new privacy policy appears to try to limit your use of an email address obtained through ebaY - but also appears to allow for mailing/customer lists as long as they are opt in and have "full disclosure".
QUOTE - By entering into our User Agreement, you agree that, with respect to other users' personally identifiable information that you obtain through the Site or through an eBay-related communication or eBay-facilitated transaction, eBay hereby grants to you a license to use such information only for: (a) eBay-related communications that are not unsolicited commercial messages, (b) using services offered through eBay (e.g. escrow, insurance, shipping and fraud complaints), and (c) any other purpose that such user expressly agrees to after adequate disclosure of the purpose(s). In all cases, you must give users an opportunity to remove themselves from your database and a chance to review what information you have collected about them. In addition, under no circumstances, except as defined in this Section, can you disclose personally identifiable information about another user to any third party without our consent and the consent of such other user after adequate disclosure. Note that law enforcement personnel, VeRO program participants, and other rights holders are given different rights with respect to information they access.
eBay and our users do not tolerate spam. Therefore, without limiting the foregoing, you are not licensed to add an eBay user, even a user who has purchased an item from you, to your mail list (email or physical mail) without their express consent after adequate disclosure. To report eBay related spam to eBay, please send an email to [email protected]. -ENDQUOTE
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-priv.html
-Rosalinda
posted on March 23, 2001 08:33:59 PM new
For all the folks who feel we should just sit and let ebaY do as it will, well...
EBAY HAS BACKED DOWN ON THIS!!!!
Today on the DNF Maeve@ebaY posted -
"Sellers are not
prohibited from asking their buyers if they want to be placed on a mailing
list" and "As noted, you are permitted to have a link on your Me page or you
may send a request in the EOA notice to ask your trading partners if they
want to be placed on your mailing list."
And when asked "Where in the
eBay User agreement, policies, or guidelines does it say that you can't offer an opt-in to ANYONE that views your auctions? It has been stated many times by eBay that "The same rules apply for About Me pages as for Auction Listings"."
And Maeve answered - ... that is the part of the policy being reviewed. Whether or not to allow the links to opt in lists on auction
pages or not....as far as I know nothing has been decided yet and the email that went out to some sellers was a mistake. "
So now we get to wait and see what kind of policy ebaY ends up implementing ... but it had better be consistent with both sellers and third party service providers ebaY has contract with!!! -Rosalnida
posted on March 23, 2001 11:32:22 PM new
Hi Rosalinda
I get the feeling that Maeve didn't know sheet from shinola, just like most of the other pinks that visit the boards. No offense to the ebay CS staff, but the reality is they aren't the ones calling the shots.
posted on March 24, 2001 02:47:44 AM new
Hi Red-Deer, I am not unsympathetic to the poor sucker who gets sent in to do damage control. I hypothesize... Some hot shot (idiot)comes up with a "brilliant" idea - starts to implement it, and then gets reined in by legal, or by the user outrage, or by the press reaction, and then they send someone like Maeve or Katy in to face the public. Well it IS what they get paid for, and they COULD be more careful HOW they phrase things - and trying to put the blame on others does nothing but do what trying to teach a pig to sing does - accomplishes nothing and annoys the heck out of the pig -Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on March 24, 2001 04:06:50 AM new
mrgroup - "ebaY is trying to do something illegal - having an exclusive agency contract without the contract. "
More than that they want benefits of a contract with no liability or responsibility to either buyer or seller.
posted on March 24, 2001 05:43:26 AM new
Just to add a point to this discussion, when I asked an eBay spokesperson by phone yesterday about this issue, specifically about adding mailing lists to EOA messages, his reply to me was, "Realistically, what can we do?" Which doesn't necessarily mean that they won't [b]try[/b} to do something in the future...it just hasn't been decided what they are legally able to do yet.
Nothing, I suspect. Except try to emphasize to buyers that off-site transactions have a higher incidence of fraud. (this, of course, from eBay's POV)
posted on March 24, 2001 10:20:46 AM new
Great work Rosalinda!
However I don't know when most of you will realize that ebay is not the way to go anymore. It is not a home to the average seller. They don't want us.
It's very clear that the direction and new policies they are creating are not going allow most of us to survive.
When will we wake up and start working togther??
We need a co-op auction selling site and we need to unite before it's too late and we are all marginalized and sectioned off into our own little niche areas.
