posted on March 29, 2001 09:30:26 AM new
I have a great idea for a business, How to remove shill warnings from your eBay account in 3 easy steps, only 19.85. Guarnteed to work every time or your money back.
Who ever does this I get a percentage of the profit. We could write an eBook and sell it on eBay. Let me know and I will go put minimum bids on it for you.
Ok, that ws fun. It sounds like I do not want this junk on my PC. I would really like to see what it says about my account. If anyone wants to have fun and do it my eBay ID is [email protected].
Matter of fact I give you permission to post it here or just e-mail me with it.
I did a Google search on your program. I especially like the posts from people on Usenet that went something like this:
Here's what esafe2bid came up with on XXXXXXX...........
The name of the seller in this example is deleted by me to respect AW CGs. I'm sure these sellers would be very pleased to know your faulty software flagged them as a possible shillers and their name were posted on Usenet asking if that was so.
posted on March 29, 2001 09:38:10 AM new
Doesn't seem on site today, either gone away or AW rotates advertiser's ads.
As far as treating other posters well -- ???
If I was on e-mail or phone to the head of a small company, and complaining even fairly vigorously, and the person told me to "get a hobby" with the tone of voice that obviously has to accompany that, I would be doing back-flips of anger around the house for about 10 minutes! I don't see how that & other comments constitute fair play on eSafe2Bid's part. It's no longer just some guy, you see, he has stood up as a COMPANY, and business ethics & professionalism demand a higher standard than has been shown here.
posted on March 29, 2001 09:48:09 AM new
IIRC, Gary got ragged on for a spelling error and reacted like a normal human being...considering the lateness of the hour and the breadth and tone of the discussion
Just because we're in business (I run one in the RW) doesn't mean we've got doormat tatooed on our face...
If I think a customer (or potential customer) is being unreasonable or personally attacking me, I have no problem telling them where to go to...
I don't need people (or customers) like that in my life...it's too short..
Considering the pasting he's gotten here, he's done pretty well...I think he would have been better served, if he did develop the software himself, to have a representitive handle the PR here and elsewhere....someone who doesn't have an emotional stake in the subject...
posted on March 29, 2001 09:53:48 AM new
It's baa-aack!
Banner obviously rotates with other uses due to space limitations on page, it was flashing its warnings at me just now.
You know, the really AWFUL problem with his software is what has been pointed out here numerous times: This identifies "possible" shills, whether or not there ever was any actual shill activity. What a rat's nest! I feel it is a highly irresponsible & potentially EXTREMELY damaging little piece of software to a legitimate excellent seller with bona fide repeat customers -- take the example of seller ID's being posted on USENET to ask if they are shills.
It's like, I live alone, and while talking to my neighbor who is standing off to my left, I pat his little girl on the head & give her 5 dollars (she has just cut the grass on my front lawn), which another neighbor sees me do, but doesn't see the parent, so the 2nd neighbor asks a 3rd neighbor, "Do you think upriver is some kind of child molestor?", and of course it snowballs from there -- an extreme example perhaps, but the effect of this software mis-identifying someone as a shill & the harm it could do to their reputation is awesome.
posted on March 29, 2001 09:57:24 AM new
OK, so I read through this whole thread.
My opinion:
I wouldn't trust this software.
Why:
The supposed creater has attacked everyone who has made any comment against his product. And I do mean ATTACK. He has gone so far as to make these loooooong posts, which include the ID of the person he is speaking of, what they said (in italics), and his response (in bold). Why go through all this?
A good, trustworthy product needs no defending. It will prove itself.
A so so, kinda not good product, on the other hand........
posted on March 29, 2001 10:25:34 AM newluvmy2bears:
He has gone so far as to make these loooooong posts, which include the ID of the person he is speaking of, what they said (in italics), and his response (in bold).
Not that I'm defending this guy's business ethics [or lack thereof, as the case may be], but what you described is just standard practice when replying to a number of detailed comments. I do it all the time, and it just helps people know what, exactly, I am replying to. I think it's unfair to characterize it as an "attack".
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on March 29, 2001 10:31:00 AM new
I wonder what kind of insurance eSafe2Bid has? His company, in my opinion, is leaving itself wide open to slander lawsuits just by the very nature of the program.
AuctionWatch, by running their advertising, especially after they have been notified thru these postings, is also potentially leaving themselves open to lawsuits in my opinion.
I have paid my $200 to use this site because I have faith in the AuctionWatch programs and staff. I certainly don't think AuctionWatch, primarily being a site for sellers, should be promoting a product that could potentially cause alot of harm to major customers of theirs, especially those who rely on alot of repeat business.
Of course, if this was a month ago things would have been different but now it is a pay site and I really feel AuctionWatch should do whatever it can to help the sellers who pay to use their product prosper.
MARK? Maybe you should download the program and check into it - I'm sure you could enlist the help of sellers who are paying to use AuctionWatch.
eSafe2Bid if you really want a shill bidding program how about one that can detect bids by deceptively similar bidders (same last name, same city, etc.)
Just a thought .....
Edited cuz I can't spell now that I am OLD! LOL!
[ edited by mrssantaclaus on Mar 29, 2001 10:34 AM ]
posted on March 29, 2001 10:49:11 AM new
Hello All,
To many of you,I realize that nothing I can say or do will change your feeling regarding this software. I understand and respect that. However, seeing the sincere concerns of many of you about the software returning warnings from return customers, I have made a few changes that may very well help to reduce these. For example, the software will not shill check return bidders with a certain number of feedbacks. This has always been in there, but I have lowered the default setting, and also made it a user configurable setting. The thinking here is that an active return customer will most likely have higher feedback from previous sales. A few other minor changes have also been made to try and reduce these. I also changed the phraseology in the warnings so that all warnings show as Possible Shill Warning instead of the stronger Shill Warning. None of this can absolutely guarantee no warnings on legitimate activity such as frequent customers, but it should help. I know this will not satisfy many of you, but it should help nonetheless.
To those who have commented that I have been disrespectful, I do apologize if you got that feeling. I just reread my posts, and except for a response to a user who tried to accuse me of placing misleading posts because of a spelling error and some class they took, I feel I have been quite professional throughout this thread in trying to explain and defend my software. Again, no disrepect was intented, except to the person who made unfounded accusations which I will feel my reply was appropriate.
For those who have the illusion of me being some kid, I'll gladly tell you a bit about myself. I am 39, married with two great kids. I work full time for a federal agency in a non computer related field. My programming is a home based business that I conduct in my evenings and weekends. I have no illusions of feeding my family with my small business. It is what I enjoy doing and plan to do when I retire from federal service to keep from becoming a couch potatoe. The software was concieved out of my wife and my own frequent use of eBay.
Again, I do care about your concerns, and will try to address them. If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them. If you have tried the software and can think of anyway to prevent or reduce the false warnings, please email me your suggestion.
Anyway, just thought I'd let you all know that I have been listening and have made some changes based on your concerns, FWIW.
May I make a suggestion for a change. This program flaged a customer that has been on ebay for months before we had any dealings with her. She did have a feedback rating of 4 before she ever bid on our auctions. Then she bids on 4 of our auctions and wins 3. This, in my oppinion is not, in any way, an abnormal bidding pattern. This person should have never been flagged as a possible shill.
If you can make a change that would exclude situations like this, I might change my oppinion of your software.
BTW, I emailed you because I wanted to let you see what the seller's reaction would be to your product. I'm glad to see you are listening...
posted on March 29, 2001 11:14:08 AM new
I just "checked" on my favorite seller with over 1300 FB and got 2 warnings. One was listed as "possible Shill Warning" the other was listed as "strong Shill Warning".
OK I click on the tab at the top that says warning and was taken to a screen that showed the above "warnings" and right below that was a BIG LONG TAB BAR that said "Report Possible Shill Bidding to eBay's Safeharbor"!!!!!
Apparantly with just a click the info is automatically sent to eBay!
Can you imagine how easy it would be to just click that button without ANY real information other than what shows up on the eSafe2Bid Report. Disclaimer or no, this could easily be abused.
Wonder what safeharbor would do if everyone trying this little program out clicked on that instant link and sent the "suspected shill" warnings to them???? Especially those that obviously are just repeat customers??????
posted on March 29, 2001 11:14:57 AM new
Thank You! joanne! Wow, I have a high number of return bidders but most have high feedback so I suppose that is it.
Hey, maybe this software is really catching all of you. I figure it did not flag me it must be really good.
That was a joke, please do not attack, please.
Again, thank you joanne! for doing that for me. I still want to stay away from it. Shill bidders do not bother me at all. I figure I put in my bid for what I want, they shill over me and their just paying fees.
posted on March 29, 2001 11:21:30 AM new
"The thinking here is that an active return customer will most likely have higher feedback from previous sales."
Over the years most of my return customers have had the lowest feedback. They trust me and like my stuff. A few months ago a newbie kept bidding on lots of my things and she only had a couple of feedback. Everytime I clicked into my auctions there she was.
As a buyer I have found so many items that I want from certain sellers that I have had to take out a new ID because I kept sniping newbies who got upset at me. So now I would be labelled as a possible shiller because I have low feedback or only feedback from that seller?
Gary, I appreciate that you have taken the time and trouble to post here again. You may have faith in your software and I can understand that you truly believe in your product but there is so much potential for abuse that it worries me. This affects me as a buyer as well as a seller.
posted on March 29, 2001 11:32:50 AM new"Report Possible Shill Bidding to eBay's Safeharbor"
WTH?
This is going from bad to worse.
I too have many repeat bidders/buyers, and some of them have very low feedback as well.
What does that prove - NOT MUCH
Maybe they like my items, maybe they trust me as a seller, and MAYBE they just can't afford to win many of the auctions?
So Gary, what's the new default setting? So far nothing you have tweaked has changed my mind about your Software, it has more holes in it then Swiss Cheese.
There's still one thing that really bothers me. The potential for someone to use your program for malicious purposes. I know that there's not a lot that you can do about it, besides, getting rid of the "shill warning" feature altogether, however you need to understand why many of us are upset.
There's been many posts around here about people emailing a sellers winning bidders after the auction is complete and urging them not to bid. If they are doing this on the basis of information gathered by your program (especially when no rules have been broken) you could very well open yourself up to legal action.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:08:54 PM new
abacaxi's post was RIGHT ON! The best shillers don't use the same ID's over and over again.
For example, one shill group we found several years ago were using AOL and would set up 5 new e-mail accounts and sign them all up on eBay. Once they were set up, they could effectively cancel those e-mail addys and set up 5 more, and so on. Then they would rotate these ID's so it was very difficult to even stumble on the pattern unless you were looking for something specific. This software looks for recurring ID's and would probably not even detect the more savvy shillers.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:13:41 PM new
At least the author of this software is given the opportunity to respond here -- unfortunately his software does not extend any such courtesy to legit sellers, all someone has to do is press the button & automatically notify Safeharbor.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:29:09 PM new
This is great. It's hard enough trying to get Ebay to pay attention to the shillers, feedback padders etc without a flood of emails that are at best nebulous.
I am kind of bummed out about this because first you come to the list with all hackles up, not hard to do on a board, people are people. Then you get us with the two kids angle.
Marketing is rhetoric turned on it's a$$, so let's put that aside for a moment shall we?
This board is primarily a seller board, thought I suspect there are a lot of bidders who scope out AW.
So you aren't preaching to the choir, you are affecting a lot of people who are serious about their commitment to online selling on ebay.
It's one thing to have bugs that affect performance, but quite another to have bugs that potentially affect peoples incomes.
Why not consider these flaws prior to release? Why flood Ebay with notification founded on uncertainty?
does it pull contact info? Does it verify ISP info? I mean what gives it the edge?
Math is a language, it is not full of as much nuance as speach. Or as a brain.
I repeat purchase from several sellers. I sell to a lot of zero feedback people.
I haven't downloaded the software because I have a Mac (I didn't even check to see if there's a Mac version), and am not interested in ferreting out shills except via the old fashioned way: talk to other bidders, pull info, and talk to safeharbor.
I think this muddies the water.
I am not anti-YAPS, heck honesty's stuff I use a lot. After all if it weren't for ebay, AW wouldn't have 1/4 of it's traffic.
Gary, I can dig the entrepreneurial bend, I think we all can, but possible shilling is a far cry from the real deal. Worse it just feeds on bidder fear.
I think sites like www.ebaygaragesales.come/auctions
are alot more educational.
And also Reddeer's site (sorry forgot it).
If you're going to sell software, make me a program that can search a sellers 27 pages of auctions. Now that's a feature that I would dig.
Here's some good advice when dealing with suspected shills (Also from Auctionwatch):
Know Your Limits
the simplest way to avoid a shill is to bid only what you think the item is worth or what you can afford to pay.
Assumptions
There's nothing worse than being falsely accused or punished for a violation that you did not commit. That's why many of us don't like this program.
Local Yokel
If you suspect a shill, check if the seller and suspected shill are from the same geographic region. Every auction site places the seller's region next to his or her name in the auction information box. As far as I can tell eSafe2Bid doesn't do this
Like Clockwork
There's never an auction a shill doesn't like if he or she is shilling up a partner's auction. With that in mind, shills tend to bid on everything their partners sell, revealing that they have no interest in any one category or set of categories. If a low feedback bidder bids on 4 out of 100 auctions it is not suspicious bidding activity.
"In general, though, shills will bid high only when they are fairly sure they will be outbid." If someone bids on 6 auctions and wins 5 of them, this person is probably not a shill, or is a stupid one.
One last question. If eSafe2Bid checks for suspicious bidding patterns, who determined what these patterns were? If this is one person's oppinion of what is suspicious then the whole thing is seriously flawed!
[ edited by outoftheblue on Mar 29, 2001 12:59 PM ]
posted on March 29, 2001 01:33:41 PM new
So...this program can be used to report a seller's most successful competitors to Safeharbor for possible shill bidding activity and have them suspended. And, this can be done because the program flags hard working sellers who have developed a strong base of repeat clientele. Amazing! It appears to me that this is a classic case of a "get rich quick scheme" replete with fundamental flaws. I would suggest that the distributor begin to assemble a formidable legal team to fend off the certain lawsuits that are lining up like "Barbarians at the gate".
Though the basic concept has considerable merit, the approach is illogical at the very least and
on the verge of delving into the grayest of legal areas, which could easily be interpreted as violating Constitutional Rights.
This program needs to go back to the drawing board and released only after it has met the criteria needed to back up its bold claims. Otherwise be prepared to meet the knock on the door from the hordes demanding "What's in yer wallet, mate!?"
posted on March 29, 2001 01:36:42 PM new
I just realized something else...I have one eBay account with 66 positives/27 unique users. Obviously, I am making multiple purchases from specific sellers that I love to do business with.
Does this mean that my repetitive buying habits could show up as possible shilling activity on them? I would feel terrible if I did anything to cause them any problems, especially since my dealings have been so positive.
posted on March 29, 2001 02:11:30 PM new
njrazd, that is what I am concerned about. One of my buying accounts has 127 and 69 are from unique users.
I bid on more of their auctions but others beat my snipes at times. I would also feel terrible if this causes problems for some of my favorite sellers.
Is this considered high enough feedback to make it look okay for me and them? Oh yes, I also bid on their auctions with other ID's because I was sniping newbies that I didn't want to upset. Oh no, now another problem as I don't have enough feedback?
Next step, someone traces it to my ISP and that is another problem. So to solve all the problems I will no longer buy more than a couple of items from each seller. Sellers lose business, fingers get pointed. Everyone is guilty!
posted on March 29, 2001 03:25:09 PM new
Hello all,
I am currently entertaining guests and have taken a quick break, so I can't respond now to all your posted questions, but will do so ASAP.
I did however wish to comment on one reoccuring theme. It seems that many of you continously make reference to all these law suits I should be concerned with. I can only assume to try to scare the pants off of me to pull the product. I don't know. Maybe you truly believe that is possible. In any event, even if I was to lose some law suit over this (who knows huh?, if McDonalds can be sued over hot coffee. ) by the time they liquidated Mace Software assets, there may be enough left over to pay for their court filing fee. My point is, if your tactic is to scare me, thats really not going to be very effective.
Just wanted to clear that up since it seems to be such a concern here. Anyway, I do hope to return soon to answer the other questions ask soon.
One question I do recall being asked was what the current feedback default is for excluding a bidder from shill check. That default is now set at over 20. Was previously 50. And it is also now configurable by the user.
It is what I enjoy doing and plan to do when I retire from federal service to keep from becoming a couch potatoe. The software was concieved out of my wife and my own frequent use of eBay.
