posted on April 30, 2001 01:40:30 PM new
I think insurance is really only warranted when an item is more costly than one or both parties would be willing to risk a loss on.
I would consider it mandatory for an item that costs more than $50.00 Under $50.00, it involves more paperwork and time to collect than one is likely to recoup.
posted on April 30, 2001 03:52:19 PM new
Whether or not to insure is at the SOLE DISCRETION of the seller, because the seller has to deal with the consequences if the item is damaged or lost.
If you don't feel insurance is necessary for an item under $50, then DON'T buy any! If you want to, then do. It is your call because it is YOUR responsability--not the buyer's.
If you insist on insurance being included in the price of EVERYTHING, then that is the cost of doing business with you. But DO NOT play this game of "well, if you want insurance it'll cost an extra blah, blah, blah. YOU decide if insurance is necessary, state it up front, and then PAY IT, with the cost being included in the total.
DON'T bother your customers with this nonsense. It is YOUR call, since it is really to cover YOUR butt--not the buyer.
Stop shuffling off the responsability to the buyer. I am really ashamed of this cowardly practice engaged in by some of my fellow sellers.
posted on April 30, 2001 04:33:07 PM new
BLAH BLAH BLAH.... SSDD...I totally agree with the insurance being a rip off for items under 10.00. Kind of silly to pay 1.10 for a 3.25 item. Except for the fact that not all sellers know how to package an item. Breakable items not wrapped, however separated with a plastic shopping bag will NEVER make it to it's destination in any less that 50 pieces. Are sellers taking chances with these sort of items out of spite for only making a measley 3.25? One would think they would pack extra careful when not insuring. At least a FRAGILE label on the box anywhere....Let's see, seller gets 8.25 with S&H, P.O. gets 4.66 to ship parcel post. Buyer gets a hundred new pieces for the mosaic bird bath they've been meaning to finish. Even though auction was for 2 mugs.
posted on April 30, 2001 04:33:45 PM new
>Whether or not to insure is at the SOLE DISCRETION of the seller, because the seller has to deal with the consequences if the item is damaged or lost.
This is a blanket statement. There are TWO ways to sell and ship:
FOB origin
FOB destination
Depending on which is one of these is the terms of sale, the DISCRETION, and the CONSEQUENCES fall on either the buyer or the seller.
>DON'T bother your customers with this nonsense
It is NOT nonsense. Nor is it anything "new", FOB Origin terms have been used for at least 300 years, and are both legal, and ethical.
>Stop shuffling off the responsability to the buyer. I am really ashamed of this cowardly practice engaged in by some of my fellow sellers.
Nothing "cowardly" about using these terms of sale (Not that I use them, but I DO understand them, and when I see a TOS that states "FOB Origin", If I want it insured, I will let the seller (who is acting as my AGENT for the purpose of shipping MY property) know I want the shipment insured, and for how much. In this case, the "sale price" doesn't have to match the insurance coverage, as I am having MY agent ship MY property from one location to another, and the "sale price" becomes meaningless, I can have it insured for what ever value I can justify if I need to make a claim. There is STILL a responsability on the sellers part to place the insurance, since he is acting as my AGENT.
posted on April 30, 2001 05:11:25 PM new
reddeer...You are an upstanding seller in a sea of slugs. However the seller is the one who ships and therefore holds the cert. of insurance from the P.O. The seller initiates the claim at their end including a receipt with the total of the claim and a description of the item sent. That is given to the originators P.O. with the insurance cert. which is then mailed to the buyer who has to provide the entire package and all the items enclosed (including shipping material) to their P.O. and then will receive a check on the spot for an item under 50.00. This does not include shipping/handling/insurance fees.
>I would never leave a buyer high & dry, whether they paid for insurance,
Nor would I. I don't use FOB origin (except twice I did by buyers request, once because (so the buyer said) he knew it would be much simpler to do an insurance claim it he was the only one in the loop, and another time because a buyer wanted to insure an item for twice what he paid for it (he said he had enough documentation to prove the extra value, and I didn't).
BUT like I said, I understand it. It is *mostly* used by larger wholesale suppliers shipping to institutions or retailers. But it is perfectly legal, and (IMHO) perfectly ethical. Buyers just need to understand what it means, and take it into account when they buy. Wouldn't bother me to buy under these terms. (I might clarify with the seller about what happens if the insurance Co. denies a claim due to "improper packing", and if I didn't like the answer, but wanted the item, I would ask that the seller (as my agent)to take it mailboxes etc. (I know, but if I want something, I want it.) and ship it.
My WHOLE point is that where the "responsability" falls depends on the terms of the sale. Anyone who thinks it ALWAYS falls on the seller is WRONG.
Out of about 2300 packages I've refunded 3 for lost (2 where $20.00 or less, and uninsured and untracked, and I took it out of my pocket, One was for $275, it WAS insured, and I fought UPS for 45 days, but the buyer got his money back.)
2 Damaged, (one minor, I sent a part to fix and didn't even pursue a insurance claim, the other was "Totaled out" by UPS, and they paided 100% and didn't take that long. (I saw a picture of the box, and they did something bad to it ))
posted on April 30, 2001 06:29:56 PM new
Headhunter, thank you, but I believe the slugs are few & far between on eBay.
FYI - I don't live in the USA, but here's a post I copied off AW last year from a seller who does live in the US.
my experience with filing a claim through the post office is this...
The buyer starts the claim since they have the merchandise and need to show it and the package to the post office. The buyer sends me his completed form and I fill in my
part and attach a copy of the insurance slip. It is sent back to the buyer or his post
office (depending on who sent it to me) and the insurance is paid to the buyer. I do
not refund before the claim is made nor do I refund and have the post office pay me.
The insurance was bought for the buyer's protection on HIS merchandise...once it is
paid for it belongs to the buyer not me.
Just the way I do it.
posted on April 30, 2001 06:51:42 PM new
If you send an item out without insurance, the SELLER will have to pay for the item, no matter what your TOS says. I currently have a frozen Paypal account, a negative feedback, E-bay police e-mailing me, and Square Trade sending me questionaires.
Buyer claims item was not received over 30 days after auction closed. I can't prove anything, even with delivery confirmation. I have to return the money to him, even though HE did not buy the insurance. I am obligated as the seller to make sure the buyer receives the item and sale is completed.
The insurance protects YOU the seller. I have learned a hard lesson with this one
posted on April 30, 2001 07:16:59 PM new
"Not responsible for items lost in the mail. Insurance available upon request."
The point is, if you use a billpay service, or a credit card for payment, the customer can chargeback at their discretion. You cannot stop it. Delivery confirmation is not proof. Items with delivery confirmation can get lost too. You have no recourse except insurance on the item to protect YOURSELF.
posted on April 30, 2001 07:30:24 PM new
>the customer can chargeback at their discretion.
Now we are talking about a forth party (paypal) (the third party being the USPS or what ever shipper was used.) They have their OWN rules (or TOS) which YOU agree to when you use their service.
I avoid ALL these problems by rolling the cost of insurance (on most anything over $50) into my S&H. (Unless something goes way higher than I expected, and then I eat the extra insurance cost and do a happy dance )
[ edited by Microbes on Apr 30, 2001 07:33 PM ]
posted on April 30, 2001 08:57:47 PM new
I was wondering about this for a month,
Many sellers dont even tell you about insurance and many buyers dont want it.
Well, I hate to tell them, but USPS sucks,
So I just started charging $7 for S&H.
My items are small, but I still put them
In a smaller box and wrapped them in tissue paper before placing it into a USPS
Priority box.
(and I have to pay for those)
So my brake-down is $5.90 for shipping and handling (4.90 shipping and $1 my cost
For boxes, paper,thank you card and gasoline
And $1.10 insurance, so $7 total.
And everybody payed so far,no questions asked. If USPS will damage my (2) boxes,
Then me and my buyer are protected.
That is the whole idea.
posted on April 30, 2001 09:02:55 PM new
laptopper, i really don't understand your (and others') vehemence on this. i started out as a buyer on ebay, and am now 99% of the time a seller.
when i was a buyer only, i'd ask for insurance if i couldn't afford to lose the money, should the item get lost in the mail. if i opted not to get insurance, i figured i was knowingly taking the risk, and would be s.o.l. if it got lost - which, btw, never happened. but if it did, i can't imagine holding the seller responsible!
so now i'm a seller, and i operate the same way. i always offer insurance and suggest it's a good idea - just in case the usps loses it. i just don't get, as a buyer or a seller, how it can be seen any other way.
in other words, i agree with e.g., mr. p, and the others whose names i neglected to note along the way
posted on April 30, 2001 09:35:41 PM new
LAIOCHKA:
>So I just started charging $7 for S&H.
>So my brake-down is $5.90 for shipping and handling (4.90 shipping and $1 my cost
For boxes, paper,thank you card and gasoline
And $1.10 insurance, so $7 total.
Some people will tell you they don't like 'em, but you might want to check UPS's Daily pickup deal. Your break down would be:
$5.00 (average)shipping and $1 cost
For boxes etc. $0 for gasoline, $0 for the first $100 worth of insurance $0 for tracking.
posted on May 1, 2001 05:42:07 AM newIt seems to me dubyasdaman that there are at least three people on this thread willing to dispute this statement.
There are also numerous people who are willing to dispute the fact the earth is a sphere instead of flat (and no, I'm NOT kidding). They're wrong also.
Secondly, I don't know what "law" you are speaking of.
It's called the Uniform Commercial Code.
I don't know if it applies to individuals selling on the internet as opposed to legal carriers or shipping companies...
It applies to companies and individual sellers equally.
...and third, I seriously doubt that very many people on ebay know about it either.
For legal purposes, this is irrelevent (although probably true).
posted on May 1, 2001 07:20:52 AM new
I suppose with an honest, professional Seller on ebay who is familiar with insurance and shipping practices, all can be (and often is) well. If an item is lost or damaged, that Seller will either have insurance in place (and charged for it accordingly) so a claim can be filed and a refund extended to the Buyer.
But, ebay is compromised of much more than the honest, professional Seller. There are scams as well as those that are cleaning out closets, attics & the garage, i.e., the occasional Seller.
I purchased a small ticket item ($21.00) and the payment was sent. The item never arrived. Seller claimed it was shipped but had no proof/confirmation/tracking to verify this allegation. As a Buyer, I am out money, the cost of shipping and have nothing to show for this. Seller did not offer insurance nor would the Seller refund the money and shipping/handling fees I paid (BTW, was $5.50).
With the USPS, the Seller must initiate the claim process. The Seller will be sent the refund check from the USPS not the Buyer who actually owns the item. Again, most Sellers would return that refund check to the Buyer--but NOT all do.
Seemingly, Sellers expect the Buyers to assume all risks and suffer all consquences. They expect the Buyer's blind trust & faith in their integrity & performance. Yet, when it comes right down to it, the Seller does not want to offer up the same in exchange to the Buyer. Some Sellers offer no proof whatsoever that any item was ever shipped and then turn around and have the audacity to doubt the Buyer that an item was never received.
The attitude of "If you want insurance, then request it and pay for it" by some Sellers IS a cop-out. Insurance protects the Sellers from chargebacks, stopped payments, complaints filed with USPS, safeharbour, negative feedback and an endless barrage of e-mails & phone calls inquiring as to the status and/or refunds. The Seller gets the refund claim check--not the Buyer. Part of the Seller responsibility is to ensure that the item gets to the Buyer who has already paid!
If you automatically charge and include insurance with your s/h fees in your TOS, then you are off the hook should a Buyer say "deduct the insurance" as it truly was at their own risk. Sellers, Insurance is for YOUR protection more than anyone else's benefit. IF a Seller insures the item, and it is lost/damaged, the Seller can get reimbursed for the cost, so why not just issue the refund and prevent all the negatives one will experience with a customer that did not receive what they paid for?
Seems simple to me, if you don't want as a Seller to risk all the negative consquences, you would automatically insure and only alter from that if the Buyer requests and understands it will be at his/her own risk.
I totally agree with you - we never ship without insurance - and in 5+ years we have almost never had a buyer complain.
I insure everything because I am the one who is going to have to settle the problem if one occurs.
I don't see any of the mail order major companies, Spiegel’s, Sears, or others offering you choices regarding insurance, or anything such as that - I don't know why buyers think an eBay seller should be any different.
posted on May 1, 2001 07:48:44 AM newSeemingly, Sellers expect the Buyers to assume all risks and suffer all consquences. They expect the Buyer's blind trust & faith in their integrity & performance. Yet, when it comes right down to it, the Seller does not want to offer up the same in exchange to the Buyer.
I don't know- I think sellers have their risks, just the same. Many accept checks, which they hope will not bounce. There is the possibility of having a "stop payment" put on a check or money order. With returns, sellers risk the possibility of having the buyer switch their item with another. In the event of loss or damage, even when the seller has purchased insurance, the seller depends on the buyer to cooperate in filling out the claim forms. Many sellers leave feedback upon receipt of the payment- ever hear of feedback extortion?
posted on May 1, 2001 11:22:51 AM newdubyasdaman, What? Now yer tellin me dat the world ain't flat?!? Naw....
I am not saying that are wrong. I'm simply saying I would not count on very many ebayers knowing this or taking your word for it.
When you have a disgruntled buyer screaming for their $30.00 item and threatening everything from frozen accounts and chargebacks to negative feedback and mail fraud, "being right" ain't gonna do you much good.
posted on May 1, 2001 11:43:48 AM new
Mitzee, you said "The Seller will be sent the refund check from the USPS not the Buyer who actually owns the item."
This is only partially true. On the claim form that is filed for both lost or damaged mail there is a box that is checked that directs who gets the insurance proceeds...the sender or the recipient.
On the one lost package I filed a claim for the buyer got the refund as that is the box I checked when I initiated the claim.
I would never refund the customer first and then file the claim even if I directed the post office to pay me the refund. I say this because the post office does a trace of the lost mail and if they find it WAS delivered (the postman remembers delivering the package , for instance), the post office will deny the claim...then I would be out the merchandise AND the money.
posted on May 2, 2001 08:17:24 AM new
Amy, thank you for the clarification concerning claims with the USPS. I have had only two expereinces (neither related to ebay) with claims and the USPS. In both cases, as the shipper/seller I had to file the initial claim & show receipts from which a claim form was sent to the recipient/buyer. In both cases the claim check was mailed to me and I in turn had to forward it the recipient/buyer.
I do know that the UPS ONLY will issue a claim check to the Shipper and not to the intended recipent of the package. I was unaware that the Post Office has a different policy. Thanks for explaining it to me Amy.
))