posted on November 8, 2000 08:27:09 AMAbingdon, is that true? Is that the official word?
I agree with you that the ballots should all be the same, but that's the way it is.
Moral of the story: Always read the ballot before you place your vote. But in the end it won't affect the outcome. The Bush votes in the overseas absentee ballots will outnumber those Gore lost to Bush because of the Snafu by a huge margin.
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Nov 8, 2000 08:27 AM ]
posted on November 8, 2000 08:27:36 AM
Oh, well that might explain it, I guess. Still 2500 votes could do it one way or the other for either candidate. Florida is going to be THE deciding factor in this race. What a cliffhanger!
posted on November 8, 2000 08:27:53 AM
A number of the western states are not 100% reported. I don't know how many outstanding votes this represents. Is it possible for Bush to still win the popular vote?
Personally, I don't have a problem with the popular vote not determining the election. Too many people make their decisions without researching the issues and allow themselves to be swayed by hysteria (or a pack of cigarettes).
posted on November 8, 2000 08:30:05 AM
Uh.. what does "SS" stand for, krs. Is this true, or rumor. If they have confirmed this, something is really wrong.
posted on November 8, 2000 08:34:00 AM
Dan Rather is ALL riled up, and ABC reports as follows about the ballot boxesmysterious diappear/reappear later act, the screwy ballots, and the differences between the sample and the actual ballot:
“There have been reports of irregularities,”
ABCNEWS Political Director Mark Halperin said.
“Florida is a big, sprawling state with a pretty fabled
political history in terms of, in some parts of the state,
voting irregularities. If it comes down to the question of a
mistake in Florida, how close Florida is, and Florida
deciding the winner, I think there’s going to be a lot of
looking at the process as a whole. The winner of Florida
in all likelihood wins this election.”
Democratic Party officials said sample ballots handed
to Florida voters by volunteers as they entered the polling
places in precincts in Palm Beach listed the candidates in a
different order than what voters saw in the voting booths.
The result, they said, was voters who referenced the
sample ballots to cast their votes may have voted for
Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan when they thought
they were voting for Gore.
The Democratic National Committee said it started
receiving complaints from voters that the actual ballot was
very confusing. Basically, voters said, the hole punch for
Gore on the ballot was so close to that of Buchanan that
many voters weren’t sure who they had voted for.
“By Gore there were two holes … I had to figure out
which one,” said voter Lena Fransetta. “I asked one of
the ladies for help and she didn’t know. When I left I
figured out I voted wrong.”
Another voter, May Cohen, said, “I don’t know if I
voted wrong … Republicans had only one hole,
Gore-Lieberman had two. I think I did right, but it was
very confusing.”
DNC officials reacted immediately by calling the
county supervisor, trying to put up signs, or designate a
phone number for those who felt they may have voted the
wrong way. The director of Florida’s Division of
Elections, Clay Roberts, said there was nothing wrong or
unlawful with ballots in the state.
The Democratic National Committee at one point also
claimed nine ballot boxes were missing in Broward
County, which boasts approximately 220,000 voters, but
later reported the boxes were recovered and were being
counted.
They said they had no information on how the boxes
were lost or how they were found. Ed Cast of the Florida
Elections Committee said the boxes were never really
missing. “There was a slight mishap, but they have been
sitting at the supervisor's office,” Cast said.
Still, the DNC in Florida has indicated it will send
lawyers to file a court petition for a recount if there is a
controversy over the outcome.
GOP Investigating Reports
Republican National Committee spokesman Tom Yu said
party officials were aware of the reports of voter
tampering and irregularities and that they were
investigating.
“ I’ve heard rumors but I can’t confirm any of those
rumors yet and I think at this point our people are looking
into those rumors and trying to track down if they are
true,” Yu said.
In response to the reports of voter confusion at Palm
Beach, Yu said voters should pay the close attention when
they’re voting and report any irregularities to the polling
place and to their local officials. But he also warned
against jumping to any conclusions about rumored voting
irregularities.
“We’re investigating the irregularities and if those
irregularities do exist then, let’s find the source and try to
rectify them,” he said. “At this point I think it’s an
investigation that we don’t want to raise any undo
excitement that isn’t warranted. We are looking into any
of these irregularities and if they do prove to exist, the
proper action will be taken.”
posted on November 8, 2000 08:40:32 AM
Hmm...who is this Clay Roberts? Was he appointed by Jeb Bush? Something is really wrong here. Something stinks, especially since it was widely known going into this race that Florida was going to be a BIG factor in the outcome. I really hate this. If Bush won fair and square, then fine. But it sure isnt looking like it to me.
posted on November 8, 2000 08:44:01 AM
“We’re investigating the irregularities and if those
irregularities do exist then, let’s find the source and try to
rectify them,” he said...“At this point I think it’s an
investigation that we don’t want to raise any undo
excitement that isn’t warranted. We are looking into any
of these irregularities and if they do prove to exist, the
proper action will be taken.”
posted on November 8, 2000 08:54:35 AMThe electoral college system is antiquated and none of the reasons for having it in place still apply. It's time to scrap it and bring the US electoral process into the 21st century.
Ok lets re do the whole Constitution then.
Whether Gore wins FL and becomes the next President, and I voted Bush, scrapping the electoral college would be UNConstitutional.
posted on November 8, 2000 09:04:46 AM
Has anyone else heard that another locked ballot box was discovered this morning, in the daycare center of an African-American church?
posted on November 8, 2000 09:05:17 AMWhether Gore wins FL and becomes the next President, and I voted Bush, scrapping the electoral college would be UNConstitutional.
I'm not sure I understand your point here. The candidate who receives 270 electoral votes will be the next President. The popular vote nationwide is irrelevant. The popular vote in relevant only to the individual states in determining who gets that state's electoral vote. Once a state's votes have been counted and it's electoral votes distributed accordingly, that state's popular vote has no further effect whatsover on the outcome of the election (except for possible "psychological" influences on the voters in the western states.
And yes, as of today, this is entirely Constitutional. Therein lies the problem.
When you say scrapping the electoral college would be unconstutional, this is untrue. All it takes is a Constitional amendment, examples of which our nation has passed numerous times already (or women wouldn't have the right to vote and slavery would still be constitutional).
posted on November 8, 2000 09:16:39 AM
Yes, in Dade County. And also found somewhere else. I think it was NBC that reported this. It's being "looked into".
posted on November 8, 2000 09:26:25 AM
abingdoncomputers-there still is larger cities and rural areas in this country, and that is the whole purpose of the Electoral college, no?
Whatever, this whole thing is the strangest, and its not just at the Presidential level, in our state the Dem. canidate for Senate did her 'acceptance' speech last night, this morning they are getting all the votes in, and its her opponent that is winning.
posted on November 8, 2000 09:26:54 AM
Yeah, VERY efficient. Considering that there may be more "misplaced" ballot boxes out there. Guess they want to recount before they "turn up",eh?
posted on November 8, 2000 09:31:52 AM
Question on that ballot box... if it is possible to 'find' a locked ballot box, who the h@ll lost it in the first place??? What's up with that?
posted on November 8, 2000 09:36:32 AM
If we're going to do speculation...one could ask how difficult would it be to lock a ballot box and plant it where it might do the most good?
posted on November 8, 2000 09:37:14 AM ...It was voter error. They didn't read the ballot before casting their vote...
I've seen the ballot in question, and it isn't quite that simplistic.
MSNBC blew up a copy of the ballot used in Palm Beach County, which is the only county in Florida that uses the butterfly ballot format. In this age of technology, there is no excuse for it.
Look at it through the eyes of the elderly. It is very easy to see how they would be confused by it.
Buchanan received 3,407 votes (he wishes) in a Democratic county. His votes from just that county represent 20% of all of his Florida votes. At this point, Buchanan received no more than 1,000 votes in any other county.
Wexler, the congressman for that county was interviewed this morning and he is furious. He was at the polling station and said people were coming out crying because they were so confused. According to him, the people he represents are not Buchanan supporters.
posted on November 8, 2000 09:45:07 AMabingdoncomputers-there still is larger cities and rural areas in this country, and that is the whole purpose of the Electoral college, no?
Actually, no. This is a misconception held by many however.
The reasons the electoral college was devised is because in the 18th century communications between the various states were very difficult and slow. Therefore, it was considered simpler and more reliable to send a messenger to the capital with a fixed number of votes for each state along with the name of the winner as opposed to a constantly changing (from year-to-year)popular vote.
Also, each state had their own rules and procedures dealing with how the voting process would work and who was even eligible to vote. Therefore, at that time, the popular vote would have been a very poor way to judge the will of the people as there was no uniformity among the states. So the electoral college was devised as a means to fix both of these problems. And it worked very well then but it is completely unneccessary today, not to mention unfair.
I've seen the ballot in question, and it isn't quite that simplistic.
This is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, but I respectfully disagree. The personnel manning the voting precincts are there and will provide assistance if needed and asked for. Confusion is not a legitimate excuse when help is available.
posted on November 8, 2000 09:53:28 AM
Maybe it would have 'done the most good' if planted in the state of New York, but within Florida the actual location isn't relevant.
femme,
You're right, the palm beach ballot ambiguity stinks as though it was planned.
Noone knows what happened, and the whole of it may never come out, but throughout the history of this country manipulation of voting results is nearly a tradition that's accepted if the doer gets away with it. The Kennedy-Nixon election was fraught with charges and apparently there is truth that the Kennedy campaign was successful with the able (and practiced) assistance of the then Chicago mayor in pulling it off. At least Richard Nixon chose not to contest the
result.
But this is pretty strange. The republican candidate's brother is governor of the critical hinge state and it goes to that candidate with practices that, though widely known, haven't been suspected seriously in a national election for 40 years?
"I had to figure out which one,” said voter Lena Fransetta. “I asked one of the ladies for help and she didn’t know. When I left I figured out I voted wrong."
posted on November 8, 2000 09:58:55 AMfemme has it right. I'm watching Burden of Proof right now (CNN) and they showed a ballot from the Palm Beach area which IS confusing. HOWEVER, they also interviewed an affected voter by phone and it sounded to me that beyond the intended confusing design, there could have been a printing error involved (Speculation on my part, based on the sample showed and the description by the voter). The ballot had two candidate tickets on the left and two candidate tickets on the right, with the holes to punch in the middle. These L and R candidates were staggered, not side by side. If there was a printing error of the misregistration type, it could've been even more confusing.
WHATEVER happens, we need to take a very long, hard look at election problems in ALL the states and absolutely find ways to ensure that they never happen again. Maybe Oregon has it right -- ?
posted on November 8, 2000 10:02:45 AM
OR...the Democratic candidate appears to be losing by a tiny margin, and so a last ditch attempt is made to undo the election. Either the donkey or the elephant could be stinky.
without you.