TALLAHASSEE -- With the closest presidential
election in American history hinging on a recount in
all 67 Florida counties, state elections officials say
it would take two days to re-check the numbers --
and even by then the world may not know whether
George W. Bush or Al Gore is president.
Meanwhile, three Palm Beach County residents
filed a lawsuit today asking that a new election be
held in the county because of irregularities in the
presidential ballot.
The lawsuit, filed in Palm Beach County Circuit
Court against the county's vote canvassing board
and election officials, claims the listing of
presidential candidates on two pages confused
supporters of Vice President Al Gore, who fear
they accidentally cast their votes for Reform Party
Candidate Pat Buchanan because of the way the
punch-card ballot was laid out.
posted on November 8, 2000 09:08:37 PM
Yes yes I know all about the crayon ballot box...I was referring to a woman who was interviewed that I heard after I heard Jed Bush talking about the crayons...and she mentioned missing ballot boxes.
To tell you the truth, I was in an out of the room during that story so it is possible that she was referring, at least in part, to the one missing box...just seems strange that she would speak of missing ballot boxes in plural if there was only one.
Whatever.
The whole she-bang is a mess and the fallout of whatever outcome is sure to last beyond this week, possibly for years to come.
posted on November 8, 2000 09:18:20 PM
...just heard on Canadian TV..."imagine that the successor to President Clinton will be decided by a state shaped like a penis"...
posted on November 8, 2000 09:20:03 PM
My first reaction is to say... let's give Clinton 4 more years, but she won the election for NY Senator. Can she hold both positions?
posted on November 8, 2000 10:08:40 PM
Barbarake: Thanks a zillion for pointing me to the round table! I had never looked over here; I saw your message in the Ebay area. And you are a woman after my own heart. I've been in politics (elected) and have noticed that it's true what researchers have written, that women care more about fairness than men do. Generally speaking, that is, and guys, please don't take this as a slam. You have other values that are important.
Here in this mecca of Utah, I am a triple minority, a non-male, a non-Republican, and a non-Mormon. For all that church's religious posturing about "family values," I can tell you I see more Republican sliminess in politics up and down the food chain and especially at election time--dirty tricks, messages "not passed through the churches" but somehow received by all good church members, slimy letters in all church members' mailboxes, etc. etc. It seems that in this state the end justifies the means. I tell all of you who are Republicans, if you moved to Utah as a non-Mormon, you would most likely become a Democrat. Move here as a moderate Democrat, and there is no such thing in Utah as a moderate Democrat--you would automatically be labeled a left-wing tax-and-spend do-good Commie weenie Democrat.
Whatever you are politically just move it over a notch here and that would be your label.
I know I'm ranting, but once a year, at election time, many of us want to throw a shoe through a window. Or something more violent. The mood passes gradually, and we settle back to enjoying our beautiful state and putting up with our minority status.
It may be the only state in the union where a Caucasian can well be in the minority--and yes, "they" will then call you a "gentile," even if you're Jewish! Go figure. I must say that the silver lining to this is that I have begun to understand, for the first time in my life, what it feels like to be a minority person, and that has caused me to be more active in "real minority" issues.
So. . . the Florida mess sounds familiar to this "gentile." Politics can be dirty--and remember, no group ever willingly gives up its power.
[ edited by roadsmith on Nov 8, 2000 10:10 PM ]
[ edited by roadsmith on Nov 8, 2000 10:12 PM ]
posted on November 8, 2000 10:21:38 PM
I do agree with most of you and the original poster that there are too many irregularities in Florida not to have at least a LONG investigation if not a totally new vote ( Yes I'm a Democrat but....). I could not believe at 2:00 AM central I was still waiting for Florida to come in, What the heck was going on..Close Or Not, something is not right, BUT if Gore legitamately lost the state ,So be it, I can live with it... Just can't live with Fraud and Manipulation, Especially since Gore won the Popular vote.
posted on November 8, 2000 10:52:23 PM
hopifulli "This is the problem I had with the democrats rousting the elderly from their nursing home beds and escorting them to the polls. This is just one of things we were treated to in California, but because it was such a landslide for Gore in this state, no one cares. "
I used to do the volunteering for this kind of work when I lived in New Hampshire. There are many elderly people who were very grateful for this service. Yes, I did work for a particular party but I never told them who to vote for or even expected they would vote for the same party just because I ferried them there. (I would be afraid to get a walker up side the head if I even suggested it )Believe me both parties did this and I'm sure if you check into it you will find this was true in California too. If not shame on the party that doesn't do it.
posted on November 8, 2000 11:46:35 PM
hopefulli, if indeed the seniors were taken from their beds I'm sure it was something they wanted and were grateful to get that ride to go to the polls. If they were unable to leave they can always vote by mail.
My ex MIL is 90 years old and you couldn't meet a more sharp clear thinking person. She has been having a hip problem and this is the first time she has voted by absentee ballot. She said if she wasn't able to do it by mail she would have crawled to her polling place. BTW she voted for Gore.
posted on November 9, 2000 04:04:13 AM
Here is just one quote from the AP ""The ballot was laid out within accordance with the statute," said Roberts, the state elections director. "That's a voting system that's been in use for many years in many counties."
From what I understand from the different news stations, finding a judge to decide this way will be next to impossible.
The ballots that have been "thrown out" were ballots that were punched twice.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. There is so much speculation, so many of the so called "news stories" are filled with "suspected, might, could be, alleged".
posted on November 9, 2000 05:41:10 AM
If there are legal challenges by Gore and this whole election is still up in the air come January, Strom Thurmond will be made acting president.
posted on November 9, 2000 06:07:58 AM
Jamesolblivio~ I just wanted to point out that one can also lose one's right to vote if one is under the care of a legal guardian.
posted on November 9, 2000 07:52:11 AM
I got the answer to one question I had in the newspaper this morning. As quoted in an AP news release regarding the possibly "illegal" Pam Beach County butterfly ballots:
But Clay Roberts, director of the Florida Department of Elections, said the problem is exaggerated.
"I don't think they are confused", said Roberts, a Republican appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush, George W. Bush's brother. "I think they left the polling place and became confused. The ballot is very straight forward. You follow the arrow; you punch the location. Then you have voted for who you intend to elect."
Sooo....I don't know if an email to this man's office would do much good. Sounds like he has already made up his mind. And it certainly doesn't sound like someone, who is unbiased and bipartisan, as it would seem they should be in the position of someone overseeing elections.
Also interesting was I read or saw on the news (can't remember where) a snippet where party officials actually give lectures at party seminars for ballot placement, in order to gain the most "advantage" for their candidate. I'm not saying just Republicans do this. I'm sure Democrats do too. But this Palm Beach thing is really blatant. Almost 20000 votes were disqualified due to two candidate holes being punched. That indicates confusion to me. Anyone wanna guess as to which "two" candidates were punched?
KatyD
edited for UBB and to apologize for "candidate's hole punched" remark, sounds funny, but I don't know how else to say it. And to add a zero.
[ edited by KatyD on Nov 9, 2000 07:54 AM ]
[ edited by KatyD on Nov 9, 2000 09:49 AM ]
posted on November 9, 2000 07:52:57 AM
I was not talking about elderly who simply couldn't get to the polls. I agree 100% that anyone that wanted to vote should have every opportunity.
My family makes regular visits to 2 nursing homes. Several weeks ago, volunteers arrived to register/re-register everyone there. Unless they indicated a party affiliation, they were registered as democrats (I know it makes no actual difference in how they could vote). Some of them were barely able to sign their names and definitely were not up on the candidates/issues. They were picked up on Tuesday to vote. If any of you have ever visited a nursing home you know how grateful some of the residents are for any attention and in that vulnerable condition, they are easily swayed.
Please do not construe this as elderly bashing. I am in no way implying that our older citizens should not be able to vote. I just think the voting should be left to those who intended to vote and took time to inform themselves on the issues. Maybe that is too idealized.
posted on November 9, 2000 08:00:44 AM
hopefulli: What you are saying happened does not sound quite legal. You are indicating that these elderly people were not in control of their faculties, and if they were actually "registered as Democrats" when they were unable to sign their name, it sounds very serious, if in fact not fraudulent. I'm sure that you are aware that each nursing home has a "patient ombudsman" or "advocate" which I believe is state law here. To clarify, we are talking about convalescent hospitals, as opposed to retirement centers. If you felt that something improper was going on, you should have immediately contacted the "patient ombudsman" assigned to that facility.
posted on November 9, 2000 08:57:03 AM
It's ridiculous to call for a new vote in Florida or part of Florida. Both parties approved of the confusing ballot in question. And now the circumstances of the vote have changed. If a new vote is done, it should be nationwide.
In retrospect of how the senate and congress have balanced, I would likely change my presidential vote. The most effective communicator should be in office in order to insure at least a modicum of cooperation.
And what is the total number of ballots discounted for double entries within the entire nation? Happens all over the place. Ballots clearly state that if you make an error, you may ask for a new ballot and start over.
I've worked the polls many times in the past. There was always someone available to assist voters who needed it. They could choose a person from either party, or bring their own assistant.
The troubles in Florida are but an example of similar problems across the nation. Until we have national standards for national elections the problems will continue.
posted on November 9, 2000 09:10:54 AM
Someone mentioned Caucasian minority states... I am in one...Hawaii. Caucasians are a minority here. And we went Gore. But I have to say mention the voter turnout here because there is a huge 'we don't make a difference' here with our tiny electoral count and the time difference. Many ppl here feel that our votes don't count much, since we're not a big electoral state. My mother voted in Delaware...same thing. Not a big electoral state so ppl's votes don't count as much as say FLORIDA (lol).
In any other type of election, the person with the most votes wins. Period. Not here in this country. The electoral college is outdated and needs to go.
And on the issue of simply asking for another ballot, I saw a woman interviewed who had made that Buchanan/Gore mistake and she asked for another ballot and was told she couldn't have one. I think it was that Wechsler dude that said that he talked to literally hundreds of ppl who told him they voted for Buchanan over Gore in error. And those are just the people who realized their error. Now certainly, it may be deemed unfair to have Palm Beach vote again, but it would also be unfair to give Bush a state that Gore REALLY won, especially when it determines the presidency.
Yes, both parties approved the ballot. But the ballots have since been determined to be illegal, since the second box was for Buchanan when the Republican and Democrat parties are supposed to have the 2 top boxes. Given the fact that the ballot was illegal, are we to just throw them out, as if those people don't count at all, and give Bush the state, or are we to let those voters voices count and give Gore the state?
posted on November 9, 2000 09:26:00 AM
The legality of the ballots will be debated for a long time. The fact remains that people who read the instrucitons and played close attention to what they were doing were able to vote for the cantidate of their choice.
The ballots here in Wyoming were weird too. We had to connect the arrow. And it was a good sized connection to make and a thick line. No markers were provided and if you left out the coloring in between the lines your vote may be discounted. So most of my time in the booth consisted of coloring. And like Hawaii, Wyoming is a piddle in the pail of electoral votes.
If you take the responsibility to vote and care about the outcome, it is only common sense to make sure you perform the task correctly. But then that's part of our "blame someone else" mentality.
FWIW, I voted for (note I didn't say supported) Bush. But I think Gore should be the president elect based upon the popular vote. The electoral voting process is as flawed as ummmm, Florida's system.
posted on November 9, 2000 09:35:18 AMAlmost 2000 votes were disqualified due to two candidate holes being punched. That indicates confusion to me. Anyone wanna guess as to which "two" candidates were punched?
Actually, in Palm Beach County, over 19,000!!! ballots were disqualified because of double-punching. 19,000+ ballots is a lot to disqualify, esp. in one county!!!
Pat Buchanan said on one of the morning shows that he didn't feel that all the votes he got in Palm Beach County were really his.
posted on November 9, 2000 09:47:45 AM
Hi barbarake, Yes, I just saw that I left out a zero. It's almost 20,000 votes. And yes, I believe it indicates major confusion on the part of the voters. The simple fact is, that according to Florida law, and no matter who "approved" the ballot, or whether they understood the instructions, that ballot was illegal. And I think the courts are going to affirm this, and at the very least there will be a revote for that county.
posted on November 9, 2000 11:48:16 AM
It's a no win situation!
If they have Palm Beach County re-vote, which I suspect will give Gore the state and therefore the presidency, Bush supporters will scream NOT FAIR. If they don't do a re-vote and Bush wins the state and therefore the presidency purely on a technicality because it's getting more obvious that Gore had more supporters and votes, Gore supporters will scream NOT FAIR.
This is SO incredibly fascinating to watch play out.
posted on November 9, 2000 11:51:11 AM
And absolutely I agree with KatyD. No matter who approved the ballot, it was an illegal ballot.
One other alternative I thought about: does anyone think there is a possibility of throwing out the entire Florida vote? And if so, would that give the win to Gore with 260 electorates since it would be impossible for either to make 270?
posted on November 9, 2000 12:13:00 PM
1) The ballot is completely straight forward. You find the name of your candidate, follow the bold arrow to the corresponding circle, and punch it. Nothing confusing here at all. Anyone that can read can properly fill in this ballot. Anyone that cannot read can ask for assistance.
2) The ballots were approved by the Democrats before the election. And now they cry foul. I'm sorry, but they can save it for the judge (who will laugh at them and send them on their way).
3) As for the voters who voted for 2 candidates, give me a break. This is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard of. Anyone who is confused enough to vote for 2 candidates for the same office and expect his/her vote to count should not be voting!
posted on November 9, 2000 12:27:15 PMWhy would any ballot have a 3rd party nobody as the second hole to punch????
Why would any voter vote for a "hole", instead of reading the ballot and punching the hole that corresponds to his/her candidate?
I have started a rumor that a bunch of Gore supporters in Palm Beach (about 19000 of them) got together before the election over the internet and decided upon a fraud scheme. Here's how it worked:
Knowing that the Florida vote would be very close, and knowing that the slim margin would more than likely be in Bush's favor, they colluded to vote for 2 candidates for President instead of one. Then when the vote came out to be extremely close they would cry foul by saying that the ballots were so confusing that they voted for 2 candidates and demand a re-vote, knowing that public opinion would sway enough sheep in Florida to switch from Bush to Gore therefore giving the edge to Gore.
Rediculous? Of course it is. Almost as rediculous as the phantom fraud and abuse stories floating around. Almost, but not quite.
)Believe me both parties did this and I'm sure if you check into it you will find this was true in California too. If not shame on the party that doesn't do it.
