posted on July 12, 2001 04:53:58 PM new
Hi everybody,
3 weeks ago BILLPOINT sent me this message: Billpoint Payment Operations has received a purchase verification from Discover requesting a reversal of the listed
transaction below initiated by the cardholder, arising from a
processing technicality or a customer dispute.
Buyer's Name:
Buyer's Email Address:
Buyer's Phone Number:
Transaction Amount:
Transaction Date: 04/12/01
Item Description:
Reason for Dispute: Cardholder did not authorize transaction
I tried to reach the buyer after Billpoints notification, using emails and phone,but no answers! The buyer DID left me postive feedback (so she DID recieved the item) and I stated in my listing that all sales are final!!
Tonight Billpoint sent me an email with partly the following message:
Dear Seller ,
This is a courtesy notice to inform you that we are submitting
a checking account debit for 66.36 ($53.36 and $10) as a result of your
Billpoint On-line Payments activity. Please ensure that you
have sufficient funds present in your account to cover this
transaction.
........what can i do....I know that it is mentioned in their agreement etc.????? I am so afraid for all the transactions I did the last 3 months with them....after 3 months they come up with this story...I cannot hold items 3 months.....Is this the same with PAYPAL???
posted on July 12, 2001 05:09:26 PM new
It's really scary that the 'buyer' can initiate a charge-back so long after the purchase. I am getting ready to list some fairly high-ticket items (Well, for me anyway!) that will be valued between $1,000 and $5,000. I am honestly getting worried as to what a truly safe method of payment would be...
posted on July 12, 2001 05:39:30 PM newkiawok - I've never tried the wire transfer thing...Is that when they transfer the $ directly into your checking account? With that and/or postal money orders, are there ways that the customer can just take back their payment? That's what, obviously, has me kinda freaked out about it...
posted on July 12, 2001 06:42:45 PM new
Yes, they can wire the funds directly into your account. Once the funds are in your account, there's no way for them to withdraw them, unless you give them permission via your bank.
Postal MO's are pretty much as good as cash in the hand. The only way the sender can get their money back is by returning to the PO with the MO in hand. There have been some cases of Postal MO's being stolen, but the stolen numbers are posted on the USPS web site, so you can check there to make sure yours is good.
Pretty much all MO's [besides Postal MO's] can have a Stop Payment put on them, as can most Cashier's checks.
posted on July 12, 2001 06:57:08 PM new
Yeah, it helps bunches. Thanks so much. I've been vascillating for a week or so as to how I could comfortably list these more expensive items. I am going to definitely take your advise.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:04:42 PM new
wire transfer is not all that safe anymore, most people that take wire transfers have it sent to an account that they keep for this purpose. with ACH debits getting easier and easier it's really not all that safe paying with a check anymore either. the check you send for payment, just like the info you would send for a wire transfer is all the info someone needs to clean out your bank account.
Money Orders and bank checks can be stopped, the only truly safe form of payment is cash or postal money order.
posted on July 12, 2001 07:08:13 PM new
I just had another idea...What if somebody pays you with PayPal out of an existing PayPal balance? They can't charge that back, can they? Or with BidPay can they chargeback? Just wonderin' ...
posted on July 14, 2001 02:12:40 AM new
Well.here are the result of (which I thought) a very nice transaction...my item is gone...shippingcost are paid by me...billpoint fees are paid by me (no refund!!)....chargeback is paid by me....not by the buyer but my ME. I am sooo unbelievable angry! SELLERS BE ALERT!!!
Here is the reply from BILLPOINT:
Thank you for using Billpoint.
Unfortunately, the person with whom you engaged in this transaction (order XXXXXX) is not the actual cardholder. The actual cardholder is stating someone (the buyer) obtained their account information and used it to make a fraudulent purchase. We have blacklisted and blocked the buyer on Billpoint. As for the timing of the chargeback, it can take up to 120 days to initiate a chargeback and it may take even longer to go into effect.
We are sorry that a fraudulent buyer victimized you on your last transaction. This type of thing is actually the exception rather than the rule, although we know that's probably cold comfort right about now.
As stated in your Billpoint user agreement "If you are a seller, you acknowledge that Billpoint does not control the outcome of the chargeback decision reached by the buyer's issuing bank in a credit card transaction, agree to accept the decision of the issuing bank as final and legally binding, and recognize that you may not receive payment if the issuing bank rules against you."
While the vast majority of Billpoint transactions go smoothly and most people are honest, the acceptance of credit cards involves the risk of fraud and chargebacks. Billpoint takes measures to help prevent fraud and chargebacks, but the seller is ultimately responsible for each credit card transaction.
In future, if for some reason you feel uncomfortable with a shipping address or any other aspect of a transaction, may we recommend an alternate form of payment (cashiers check, personal check, money order, etc.). You may also want to check out our new eCheck payment option at:
posted on July 14, 2001 06:30:47 AM newkiawokPretty much all MO's [besides Postal MO's] can have a Stop Payment put on them...
I'm not sure where you're getting your information. The bulk of my money orders are from Travelers, followed by Western Union, followed by USPS.
Travelers Money Orders and Western Union Money Orderscannot have a stop payment put on them (check out the links that confirm this.) You can declare them lost but you have to mail in a request and it is a lengthy process and fees are involved to declare one lost, you can also declare a USPS Money Order lost. Both Travelers and Western Union provide a toll free number you can call and via an automated service you can validate the money order is good and for the amount it was issued (the last time I checked you can't do that with USPS money orders.)
The advantage of the Travelers and Western Union money orders is the buyer doesn't have to make a trip to the post office to purchase them, they can get them anywhere just about any time of day or night. Which probably explains why most of my money orders aren't from the USPS.
posted on July 14, 2001 07:41:40 AM new
Dear Billpoint victim,
I have a solution to your problem.
Atleast my bank does this..
If there is an UNAUTHORIZED ACH withdrawl from your checking account. Which this in UNAUTHORIZED you can dispute it yourself after it is taken out. Most banks charge $10. But you get your money back, all that will happen is that your Billpoint balance will be -$60.00 or whatever that amount was.
Close your Billpoint account and be done with them.
Give it a shot, IF they get the $$ from your
account. A friend of mine had a chargeback
case for the same thing, someone stole a credit card, supposidely...
He closed his Billpoint account and they never touched his checking account, his balance with Billpoint is like -$90. He can never use them again, but why would he want to? I only do paypal, never had a CB in over 217 transactions with them.
posted on July 14, 2001 07:49:49 AM new
never say never!!
if you close billpoint,you have paypal.
if you have a dispute with paypal,then you have no billpoint,no paypal,so what else is left but cash,mo and personal check??
posted on July 14, 2001 08:37:27 AM new
I had a $1000+ auction, and I would not accept paypal or billpoint, or any other money order except a postal money order. It worked out very well. It also protects buyers because they can file a US post office fraud claim against sellers if they don't get their merchandise.
posted on July 14, 2001 09:00:12 AM newmminor ...a postal money order... also protects buyers because they can file a US post office fraud claim against sellers if they don't get their merchandise.
Yup, you can file a claim, that's correct (you can file the claim if it is a personal check, cashier's check, or any brand money order.) If you think that will result in getting your money back then you're a VERY serious optimist.
posted on July 14, 2001 11:09:23 AM new
PayPal does have a seller protection plan. As long as you follow their rules and have online trackable proof that you shipped the item, they will not allow chargebacks. It amazes me that Billpoint - who is supposed to verify the cardholder address - can get away with this kind of fraud against the seller - and folks it IS fraud. On the one hand they claim to verify card addresses and THEY provide you with the address, yet they then not only come up with this bogus fraudulent cardholder story, but they charge you for THEIR mistake. -Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
Yes, the majority of MO's, can indeed have a Stop Payment put on them, some of which take nothing more than pressing the # key & entering the MO number after dialing their 1-800 number.
The 7-11 type are even easier to reverse or stop.
FYI - I've probably accepted a few hundred different types of MO's over the past 5 years, and very few of them have been issued by Travelers or Western Union.
posted on July 14, 2001 03:37:44 PM newkiawokYes, the majority of MO's, can indeed have a Stop Payment put on them, some of which take nothing more than pressing the # key & entering the MO number after dialing their 1-800 number.
So you just dial up the number and over the phone you stop the payment, no fees, no questions, no receipt necessary... hmmmm... can you give me the name of just one of the money order issuer that operates like this?
I mentioned Travelers and Western Union because they are the largest issuers of money orders. You can check with the others American Express MOs, Continental Express MOs, Wells Fargo, Mid-America Money Order Company, etc. You're telling me the majority can have stop payments on them?
The 7-11 type are even easier to reverse or stop.
7-11 has an agreement with Western Union for money orders so I'm confused on that. If you look at the MOs from the local grocery story they are usually Travelers, but they will have the grocery store's name on it. Albertson's doesn't really issue their own MOs, they issue Travelers MOs.
posted on July 16, 2001 11:55:01 PM new
Hi everybody,
thanks for all the replies!In the meantime BILLPOINT took the $66 off of my checkingaccount!!! I still cannot figure out what went wrong......I shipped to a confirmed address (Billpoint gave me when the transaction was done)..the bidder did give me excellent feedback...and now Billpoint is telling me that the person on the creditcard wasn't the person who bought the item...huh..and I shipped to the confirmed address??...confused...you will be!! Very very tricky!
BTW this was their answer about their Echeck business:
eChecks are guaranteed transactions so you will not receive a chargeback on items paid for with an eCheck.
Check out Integrated Banking Systems. They seem to be tied in with Western Union, but many of their MO's will allow a SP to be placed via their 1-800 #.
I found this out after phoning the 1-800 # to check on the status of an MO for $2,000+ that was sent to me, when I had stated Postal MO's only in the auction. The high bidder was slightly perturbed because he had to wait an extra week before I shipped.
As far as 7-11, surely you jest?
A friend of mine found out just how easy 7-11 MO's can have a Stop Payment put on them.
She purchased an MO at the local 7-11 [in AZ], lost it in the parking lot, and 2 hours later returned with her receipt & was given a full refund.
Sorry, but on the more expensive items, I have better things to do than phone daily to check on the status of MO's, if in fact a phone # is even provided.
posted on July 17, 2001 03:53:19 AM newkiawokAs far as 7-11, surely you jest?
7-11 and Western Union have an exclusive agreement to provide Western Union Money Transfer and Money Order services through 7-Eleven stores nationwide. If I'm wrong then 7-11 needs to remove this web page from their site.
7-11 has offered Western Union money orders as far back as I can remember, so your friend got one helluva deal because it is supposed to take weeks to get a lost money order refund.
Your experiences with money orders don't parallel my experiences. I must lead a charmed life.
From what I've seen [or heard] about 7-11 MO's, getting an instant refund on lost MO's is common place.
Another friend, in CA, has told me the same story about 7-11 MO's, and due to her having someone put a SP on one they sent her [couple years back now], she will no longer accept 7-11 MO's.
I've also read the same thing here on AW in the past, as well as on the eBay chat boards.
Perhaps you should give the local 7-11 a go & report back here on the outcome?
When you factor in the thousands of various bank MO's across the USA, I believe my initial comment is still valid.
MO's are not near as safe as some folks think they are.
posted on July 17, 2001 07:04:44 AM new
Perhaps the issue of 7-11 MO's is a matter of semantics. Many people call ANY type of convenience mart a "7-11". The local gas station has a small store and I have heard people call it a 7-11, which it is not.
7-11 is under exclusive contract with Western Union and most major grocery stores offer either Western Union or Travelers. However, the local B-P gas station/conveinent store offers a generic MO that may/may not (I honestly don't know) allow stop payments.
"7-11" is a rather generic term nowadays. Much like "Coke".
posted on July 17, 2001 08:03:42 AM new
If you sent the item to a verified address and received feedback, what is the basis of the fraudulent charge ?
Even if the charge was "fraudulent", why was the item accepted by the verified address of the card holder ?
Who stated your position in the chargeback investigation ?
I would also notify Safeharbor about the eBay account, because someone unauthorized must know the user's password.
posted on July 17, 2001 09:23:18 AM new
Billpoint is like ANY merchant account. The seller will lose on disputes. The best defense is to be a wary seller.
I've had two bogus purchases... the first was a $2,150 order on my merchant account. I was jumping for joy on that order.... until I saw it was from Indonesia... he ordered 4 Salmon Fly Reels... There ain't no salmon in Indonesia... So next I called the credit card company and found it to be a US bank... They informed me that the cardholder was Bill from Missouri.
I emailed the buyer again requesting his billing name and address and he again gave the foreign address, so I never bothered to ship the goods. I called the cc bank again and informed them that fraud was being committed with the cardholders card and asked to be put in contact with the cardholder. They refused. I then asked them to notify the cardholder that fraud was being committed and again they refused. They condoned the fraud by not cancelling the card or notifying the cardholder that it was illegally being used....
Who gets hurt in these fraud transactions? The seller. Not the bank or the cardholder. As sellers we are powerless. It really sucks! Some banks are better than others... My cc banks will call me when I make larger than normal purchases and will use diligence on those larger purchases. So be careful with the cc banks you use and don't use C****ank for your credit cards. While the cardholder won't lose money in the end, it will no doubt be a real hassle to clear up his credit card and some merchants might get pi##ed and ding his credit report.
The other bogus transaction just happened. This was a Billpoint purchase from Malaysia. Buyer had zero feedback and in the first week of signing up spent about $20,000 in ebay purchases... Paying ridiculous prices on many items... the item he was buying from me was a $18 item with s/h of $31... Certainly didn't make sense to me. Further I was contacted by another sharp seller who actually alerted me to the situation as I didn't check this buyer because I had 150 auctions close around the same time (ebay free listing day... got my monies worth).
Contacted Billpoint, safe harbor prior to receiving payment and they said go fish... After payment was made... contacted again and then 2 days later got a call by Billpoint and was told to not ship (I didn't and wasn't going to).
So maybe I was lucky but both frauds I never shipped so I didn't get nailed. I did lose about $65 on the $2,150 purchase because of the cc fees and the chargeback. I was told by my cc company to take a chargeback rather than credit the cardholder back the money as I would incur another $55 cc merchant acct fee so it was cheaper to get hit with a $10 CB fee. I was told it is not advised to send a check as a refund...
So the moral of the story is "Let the Seller Beware!"
posted on July 17, 2001 09:25:35 AM new
Billpoint's "verification" is a joke. They have allowed folks to open accounts when the name and address used did not match the card. They have allowed the same customer to charge back multiple items over months claiming unauthorized use. They have allowed a woman to buy numerous things and then her husband charges them all back claiming she was not authorized to use his card. I heard that The Auction Guild has recommended that folks stop using Billpoint.
As for Paypal's "protection" guarantee, just check the posts here and you will see it is rarely given. And if you check OTWA you will find Paypal's own rep stating that sellers may not be protected against "quality of item" disputes even if they ship to the confirmed address.
posted on July 17, 2001 10:02:41 AM new
Billpoint and paypal do not allow or disallow chargebacks...they have no say in the matter. Chargebacks are determined by the credit card company and the merchant (billpoint and paypal) MUST accept the credit card company's decision. Shipping the merchandise to a confirmed address does not guarantee that the CC company will deny a chargeback request from the CC customer.
Billpoint is NOT committing fraud when they charge the seller for a chargeback even if the seller sent the item to the confirmed address. Neither billpoint or paypal guarantee that a confirmed address means that the card is not being fraudulently used.
Paypal has made a business decision to not pass on certain chargebacks IF the seller has jumped through ALL the hoops paypal has set up, but the chargeback has still occurred...the money just comes out of paypal's pocket and not the seller's. If paypal were to determine that this policy is to costly to them then you can bet the TOS would be changed so that the seller would be responsible for the chargeback. Right now paypal sees the seller protection plan as being in their best interests...but that can change at any moment, much as many other things have changed with paypal.
Accepting credit cards holds risks for the merchant. The credit card company sides with the CC customer (your buyer), even in cases as spurious as the husband who denied the wife had permission to use the card and requested chargebacks months after the merchandise had been sold. Billpoint didn't "allow" those chargebacks because billpoint wasn't the final determinator of the legitimacy of those chargebacks...the CC company was...billpoint had no say in the decision to allow the chargebacks.
We, as business owners have to decide if the risks of accepting credit card purchases are worthwhile..but lets stop blaming billpoint and/or paypal for the chargebacks as they don't control whether a chargeback is approved or denied.
posted on July 17, 2001 10:04:07 AM newyisgoodBillpoint's "verification" is a joke. They have allowed folks to open accounts when the name and address used did not match the card.
