posted on August 31, 2001 07:43:34 AM new
That is nearly exactly what I replied with. I did not want to lower myself to her level. That way my really good customers would not think of me as a nonreputable seller. That way she just looks bad herself.
I am not adverse to leaving negatives though. I leave them for all deadbeats. I don't think anyone else should be surprised by them. There were so many of them this summer. I think that I left something like 8-9 negatives this summer alone.
Oh, and I know a lot of sellers leave feedback immediately after receiving payment, but for the type of merchandise I deal with (high end jewelry), this approach would just be plain silly. I'd like to make sure that the buyer is satisfied with the purchase, as I do offer the option to return an item within a 10 day period. As soon as I find out that the buyer is happy, I post feedback; it doesn't matter if the buyer chose to post feedback for me or not.
As a buyer of vintage/antique jewelry, could I implore you to re-visit this feedback philosophy?
Once you've received my payment, what further satisfaction do you require? IMO, this is just a polite way of saying the seller won't leave feedback until the buyer does so they can respond in kind. In my business, I consider the post sale support to be completely seperate, yet equally important, to the initial sale. I don't however, grade my customers on how any post-sale satisfaction issues are resolved. I provided service, they paid me.....I'm happy...if , at some future date, they are not satisfied, IMO that has no bearing on their good faith payment on the initial sale.
I scrutinize feedback carefully because of the high dollar amounts often attached to the items I bid on and am frankly leery of a seller who doesn't leave feedback for buyers or leaves it after the buyers do, even if it is positive.
In the case of your buyer, you were very generous to accept such a late payment from a buyer without them having a good reason for the delay. Was there interim communication between you?
Do you have a set policy (published) for payment terms?
What do you think would have happened if you had negged the buyer for slow payment (exclusive of extraordinary circumstance) once your payment terms had been exceeded?
IMO, the feedback on this transaction should have revolved around the slow payment of the buyer, not whether you left feedback or not.....If I was to run across this in my research of your seller ID, I would wonder, if you do end up negging the buyer for late payment, why you waited until after they left FB for you.
As a businessperson in the B/M world, I have to run my business to serve my customers but I also have to draw the line at where I become a doormat for them....setting that line and sticking to it is one of the keys to success IME.
Even though I am a part-time small seller on eBay, I consider it adjunct to my business and run it in a similar manner. I would suggest, if you haven't done it already, that you create a clear and concise TOS for your auctions, including feedback, since you have very specific guidelines for administering it.
It sounds like you have a lot on your plate...I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors!
posted on August 31, 2001 08:01:43 AM newOnce you've received my payment, what further satisfaction do you require?
That the buyer work work with the seller in a reasonable manner in order to resolve any issues that may arise with the entire transaction. Leaving a neg before informing the seller that there is a problem is unreasonable yet it happens all the time. A wise seller will take precautions.
IMO, this is just a polite way of saying the seller won't leave feedback until the buyer does so they can respond in kind. In my business, I consider the post sale support to be completely seperate, yet equally important, to the initial sale.
All post-sale actions (by both parties) are important parts of the entire transaction. Since feedback can only be left once a wise seller will wait until the conclusion of the transaction to leave it.
[ edited by MrBusinessMan on Aug 31, 2001 08:04 AM ]
posted on August 31, 2001 08:21:26 AM newMrBusinessman
In my business, quality issues may arise weeks or months after the sale...should I judge my customers on how they will treat me in the yet undetermined future?
I stand by my intial philosophy...the sale is concluded when the money and the item or service changes hands....
Any actual or implied warranty of quality or fitness for application is handled completely seperately.
IME, in the industrial field, most customers are emminantly reasonable in resolving quality or fitness issues as long as they feel I have their best interests at heart (and, believe it or not, I do). I can't believe these same human beings put on an ogre hat when going to Wal Mart or when buying something on eBay.
My philosophy is and will continue to be not to punish or impugn the character or intentions of the vast majority of my customers because of the idiocy of a few. It is a philosophy which has held me in good stead for my entire business career.
This is one area where I guess I must agree to disagree with many of the sellers who post here...
A wise businessperson once told me "If you go looking for the worst in people, you will not be disappointed....and, equally so, with the reverse" These are words I live by...
posted on August 31, 2001 08:44:47 AM new
I too received my 1st NEG this summer after a perfect 3 year run on eBay....and it was in retaliation for a much deserved "neutral"
to a seller who took three weeks to ship an item after charging my credit card and ignored 18 emails over a 14 day period. The two emails she bothered to answer contained one lie after another over shipping. After the FB exchange THEN she found her email button again and proceded to send me several threatening and vulgar notes.
Interestingly enough, she has done the same thing to several buyers since....and negging them for neutrals over her poor communication & shipping habits. Some of her posts have bordered on liable!
Why is she still on eBay? Because her neg & neutral total is ONLY 5% of her current sales and people keep bidding because you cannot SEE her track record and pattern due to the inability to pull up JUST the neg & neutral comments! (She has a FB of over 2000 and the 100+ comments are spread over the past 8-9 months!)
eBay MUST do something to protect buyers and sellers from these crazies! Program the feedback area so we can click on JUST the negs and neutrals to see if there is a pattern to their "problem" deals. Sorting through 200-2000 feedbacks to see where the problems lie is just not working!
In my business, quality issues may arise weeks or months after the sale...should I judge my customers on how they will treat me in the yet undetermined future?
Quality issues that arise weeks or months after the sale have absolutely nothing to do with the business transaction itself. If it did, no intelligent buyer would EVER leave feedback because their new widget just might break 3 months down the line.
Feedback should reflect the entire business transaction, from initial post-auction contact to delivery and satisfaction (or not) with the merchandise received. Feedback cannot and should not be based on quality issues that may possibly arise at some future point. If a buyer receives the item as described in working condition (unless described as otherwise in the listing), the transaction is then complete.
As a seller, I leave feedback when the transaction is complete. When is the transaction complete? When the buyer informs me via email or feedback that she is happy with the transaction or has given me a reasonable opportunity to make her happy with the transaction. I never refuse to leave feedback until it has been left for me first. I routinely leave feedback first unless the buyer beats me to it. But I do wait until the transaction is complete before I leave feedback. To do otherwise would render the feedback meaningless (especially if it was based solely on timely payment).
posted on August 31, 2001 09:21:11 AM new
MB...I think I understand the distinction you draw now...thank you..
Assuming the buyer paid promptly...
How would your feedback for a buyer change if s/he received the item and was unhappy with it and returned it?
Would a positive of "buyer paid promptly, unhappy with item, returned for refund" reflect the entire transaction adequately....?
Or, in the case of slow shipment..."buyer paid promptly, unhappy with slow shipment....shipper dropped the ball" How's this?
What I'm trying to determine here is the bearing of any additional feedback information you might add by waiting until the buyer has received the item...
Or, possibly, you could trumpet " buyer paid promptly and is extremely satisfied with product received"?
I'm just trying to get the gist of what is gained for any of the parties (as well as the people viewing the feedback) by waiting...
The only possiblity that comes to mind is if a buyer pays promptly and then turns into a monster post sale....in that case, I believe there is a type of follow-up now that can be used to address such issues.
When reading many of the feedback-related threads on AW, I often get the impression that the sellers seem to think they are at war with their buyers...If so, is that really how it is in the business world?
From my own experience, some of my customers are also my best friends, and, I couldn't imagine viewing someone walking through the door as a potential enemy...
Interestingly, as I buy on eBay much more than I sell, I am currently conducting a feedback experiment...If the seller doesn't leave feedback for me regarding my payment, I e-mail the seller when I receive the item and inform them of its arrival and my satisfaction (nearly 100% so far...great sellers) and see if that garners FB...if not, in a week, I post their FB and then see what happens. So far, of the sellers who don't leave me feedback immediately, to a man (or woman *G*) they have waited until receiving formal feedback showing my satisfaction before reciprocating...
Very interesting, yes?
A very worth topic of discussion as well...thank you!
posted on August 31, 2001 09:30:45 AM newthepackratsattic
Why is she still on eBay? Because her neg & neutral total is ONLY 5% of her current sales and people keep bidding because you cannot SEE her track record and pattern due to the inability to pull up JUST the neg & neutral comments!
There is a feedback widget from Vrane dot com which can help you with this; it also lets you view the sellers negs for others which might have been useful in your case...
I use it religiously as part of my seller evaluation process...this service is provided at no charge..
Your example is one of this philosophy that MB and I have been discussing at its extreme...I don't believe the majority of sellers operate with the mindset of the one in your unfortunate circumstance.
I hope you posted a calm, factual follow-up to the neg....as a seller, that's good information for me to see....
posted on August 31, 2001 09:34:53 AM new
The last time I used the vrane fb widget (within the past couple of days) it just came up with links to look at fb on a particular page, but never listed the negs and neutrals.
posted on August 31, 2001 09:56:53 AM new
RE:Vrane...
Yes, I've noticed that as well...just ran a check on a high FB seller with lots of negs to verify it and just got links in return...
Their "negs left" tool did work accurately though, so I suspect eBay has been monkeying with the feedback page codes again...I've seen this happen many times in the time I've been using Vrane.
posted on August 31, 2001 01:18:10 PM new
Again, thank you for your support, everyone! After sleeping on it, I decided to leave neutral feedback: "Auction closed on 8/1, payment received 8/23. Transaction complete". I got my money, she is happy with her jewelry (by her own admission), therefore, as far as the actual business transaction is concerned, all went well. I'll let her sort out her own issues without getting involved in a sarcastic exchange with her feedback profile.
Camachinist,
We did have communication while I waited for payment. She said that she ran into some unexpected expenses and could not pay me right away (over $500). I always have bidders on my auctions, so I decided to give her the benefit of the doubt, thinking that I'll always be able to resell it should the need arise. Life happens.
I do have a clear TOS on all of my auctions, with every aspect of the transaction completely spelled out. But, I am willing to be flexible, at my own discretion, and I think that's one of the reasons why I have so many repeat customers.
As I said in my earlier post, I don't wait for my buyers to leave me feedback. I do, however, wait until they receive their items and let me know whether they are satisfied or not. I then go ahead and leave feedback. If they choose to leave me feedback as well, great! If they don't, I don't dwell on it. Almost always I end up leaving feedback first, only occasionally have a few buyers beat me to it.
Why do I wait until they let me know (by email, phone call, doesn't matter) that they are happy with their purchase? We are talking about large amounts of money here, and I need to make sure that I am protected during the transaction as well. The "satisfaction" I need is to make sure that my investment is protected, just like the buyer needs the "satisfaction" that they got what they paid for. If the amount in question is over $1,000, I always use an escrow agent. In such a case, I leave feedback as soon as the buyer accepts the merchandise and releases the funds. So far, I've had only one return (she said ring looked too bulky on her hand). She returned the ring, I sent her a full refund, and everyone was happy. She paid very quickly and we had great communication all along - it was a smooth transaction, and I reflected just that in her feedback. The feedback she left for me (after I left her feedback, by the way) stated that I ship fast and give excellent customer service, she didn't even mention that she returned the ring.
It is clear that everyone operates by their own set of rules when it comes to feedback, and this will keep being a debated issue as long as the feedback system exists.
posted on August 31, 2001 02:42:02 PM new
Annuta you said "As far as the actual business transaction is concerned, all went well" ~ I think your feedback and your buyer's feedback is part of the business transaction and from what I read here you did not seem to think that went too well. I definitely think the buyer got the better of this deal. Future sellers now have no warning regarding this person's habit of leaving unwarranted negs.
posted on August 31, 2001 03:13:49 PM new
CAMACHINIST:
Yes, after I ranted and raved to my dog, cats, and partner, and broke a few pieces of
"garage sale glassware" at the B&M shop, I sat down and responded very professionally and concisely with:
"RETAILTORY FEEDBACK FOR A 'NEUTRAL'....1 neg in 110+.....YOU figure it out!"
Have had some wonderful feedbacks since from other sellers who sent me emails to let me know they were going to help "bury" the BS neg that I had aquired! One even pulled up the "offending auction" and told me I should have seen this one coming since I had purchased $200 worth of dolls for $34!!
There are some really FANtasTIC sellers out there and thank goodness they are in the majority!
posted on August 31, 2001 03:15:45 PM new
With this buyer's feedback rating (334) I doubt that my neg will prevent sellers from selling to her. But, it has the potential to hurt my sales if a bidder sees that I leave sarcastic negs. I know that my bidders examine my feedback very closely, and I am sure they check for the feedback I left as well (I rarely get newbies due to the amounts of money involved). I did outline the facts, so if a seller were to review her feedback they would clearly see that it took her over 3 weeks to send payment. If I didn't depend on my own feedback, you bet I'd neg her. She is on blocked bidders list so I won't have to deal with her again.
**Not Annuta on Ebay**
posted on August 31, 2001 06:32:56 PM new
Annuta: As far as I'm concerned, you did the wrong thing out of sheer cowardice. No amount of equivocating or rationalizing on your part is going to convince me otherwise. This wasn't a mere miscommunication: it was a knife in the back....
posted on August 31, 2001 09:27:51 PM new
Another example that shows what bs the feedback system is. The negative feedback should not be allowed to stand as feedback has absolutely nothing to do with how successful the transaction went. Retaliatory
posted on September 1, 2001 04:16:46 AM new
Although I would be tempted to neg someone for neging me (although I have no negs) I dont believe in negging someone for spite or revenge.
If someone took 3 weeks to pay that is clearly too long and outside of the eBay guidlines and that person deserves a neg.
I would also be sure to block this person from bidding on anymore auctions.
Claire & Jack Rosen
www.cjrfinearts.com
cjrent
877-276-6702
posted on September 1, 2001 06:39:43 PM new
camachinist:
I have a "no questions asked" return policy. As long as the item is returned in the same condition that it was in when I sent it I refund. No questions asked. And I leave favorable feedback for the bidder in this case. In several thousand transactions on ebaY and my web site, I have been asked to refund 11 times. No biggie.
I gain two things by waiting until the end of the transaction to leave feedback.
1) I have the chance to nail anyone who tries to rip me off after they have made a timely payment. I've had it happen several times, usually with a Credit Card chargeback without returning the merchandise. I also have people try to return a different item than the one I sent to them. These people catch all of hell's fury in my feedback. I'm pretty flexible about everything except fraud.
2) It gives the bidder an incentive to "work with me" in a reasonable manner to resolve issues that arise. I know that I have had several bidders who would have been VERY unreasonable had I already left feedback after receiving their payment. I don't ask for much. All I want and expect from a bidder is that he/she give me a reasonable chance to resolve any issues. If I'm unable to make the bidder happy, I gladly refund in full upon receipt of the item back. I don't hold a grudge or leave bad feedback when a bidder returns an item. But if he/she demands a PARTIAL refund AND wants to keep the item, I let loose with both barrels.
posted on September 1, 2001 06:52:47 PM new
MrBusinessMan
>>"I do wait until the transaction is complete before I leave feedback. To do otherwise would render the feedback meaningless (especially if it was based solely on timely payment)."<<
This is exactly my thoughts on feedback. Many people think that they have EARNED positive feedback by timely payment, even if they have been totally unreasonable and impossible to please.
I leave feedback based on attitude. A good attitude throughout the entire transaction = good feedback. A bad attitude = no feedback.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Sep 1, 2001 06:57 PM ]
posted on September 1, 2001 07:09:58 PM new
I used to subscribe to the idea that once I received payment, my end of the transaction was through. I have since cancelled that subscription.
Case in point. I had a bidder who received an item. I just received an email from this bidder claiming that the item was DOA and that my description said it worked. Not only did my description state the item was "Untested", but it went on to rate the item in terms of functionality. It also stated my refund policy, which this did not qualify for.
Had I already left a positive for this bidder's quick payment, I would not have been able to leave a negative and warn other sellers that this bidder did not read the description, and did not follow the TOS.
posted on September 1, 2001 07:10:17 PM new
It's your feedback that your concerned about.
Post a response under the neg that says "sorry, you paid right away and I forgot
to leave feedback, I will improve".
posted on September 3, 2001 12:02:16 AM new
Dont let it get to you, I have been in the customer sevice business for quit some time.
What I have found out is, YOU CANNOT PLEASE SOME PEOPLE no matter what you do.
..