posted on September 5, 2001 12:33:54 AM new
Way to go, Sun818 !!
(I'm assuming this was a Canadian purchaser asking for a "break" to avoid paying lawful Customs duties.)
As a former Canadian Customs Officer, I'm deeply disappointed in my fellow countrymen who knowingly bid on U.S. merchandise and put the seller in the uncomfortable position of lying just so the Canadian can save a few bucks on duty and tax (D&T).
I would like to offer a word of advice to US shippers to Canada though. Shipping costs are non-dutiable but, if you only show the TOTAL price of the transaction (including shipping) then the Canadian importer ends up paying D&T on the total amount because Customs have no way of knowing what the actual shipping cost is. To save your customer a few bucks at the other end, legally, please try to show the cost of the item and the cost of the shipping separately.
If you have any other Canada Customs questions please let me know. I am also a regular contributor on this subject on the OTWA discussion boards.
posted on September 5, 2001 12:41:33 AM new
Here is my understanding and don't take
it as fact (Because I may be wrong) it is always the foreign customs officials who will usually inspect the packages you send
just as U.S. Customs may or may not choose to inspect those foreign packages which come into the U.S. Whatever you do will probably not affect you, but it may affect the buyer
(since his Customs officials will be the
ones who determine whether the package
will be accepted.
That said, when I deal with foreign buyers
I will almost always mark the form with
a GIFT notation. I am, after all, not a
retail store, but an individual.
I will usually estimate the value of the merchandise and that may or may not be the actual bid price. If the item is used, this
can present a gray area IMO. Because
with some items it is really hard to
calculate depreciation value of an item especially if it is being sold for less than what you paid originally.
Anyway, everything I said is simply my opinion. I'm more than willing to deal with
Internationals and I like to be able to
cut them a break---but whatever I do will not
guarantee whether or not they get charged customs. It's still up to the customs officials.
posted on September 5, 2001 01:21:03 AM new
Reply to "professorhiggins" -
You are right...up to a point. Customs WILL decide which packages they examine BUT...they make their decision in no small part based on what YOU state on the Customs declaration.
You said..
"I will almost always mark the form with
a GIFT notation. I am, after all, not a
retail store, but an individual."
If the item you are sending abroad IS truly a bone fide gift...then fine. But, in the case of an eBay auction, the consignee has presumably paid a sum of money to you in order to win the auction. THAT then becomes what is known in the trade as the "transactional value" between you and the consignee. There have been books written on the subject of valuation but, simply put, unless the value is way out of line ( a genuine Rolex watch for a $100, for example), Canada Customs will generally accept the shipper's declaration at face value unless they have reason to believe he are lying. And, in my career (I'm now retired) I found numerous ways in which shippers trip themselves up.
Please remember: it isn't just about saving your customer a few bucks D&T. It's also about your personal and business reputation !
Upon examination, if a package is deemed to have been misdeclared, both the consignee's AS WELL AS THE SHIPPER'S name is entered into Canada Customs' database. Shipments originating from the same shipper in the future will be routinely pulled aside for verification of the value and contents. This results in delayed delivery times to ALL your FUTURE customers, not just the present transaction on which you may have misdeclared the value. You don't need to jeopardize your professional business reputation just because some clown wants to circumvent the customs laws of his country. If the importer thinks he is paying too much tax, he should take the matter up with his elected officials who have the power to change the rules. He should NOT be placing YOU in the no-win situation of risking your reputation on future sales to Canada just so HE can save a few $$.
As I have already said, the subject of customs valuation can get pretty complicated but if the shipper routinely declares the true price paid by the consignee (showing the shipping cost separately) he has nothing to fear or feel guilty about.
posted on September 5, 2001 04:25:57 AM new
Very interesting topic and timely for me as well. I am an artist in glass and often get custom orders for wedding gifts to be sent to the bride/groom in another county. The item is purchased by a 3rd party and "drop shipped". I always declare it as a gift as the receipent didn't order or pay for the item, it truly is a gift to them from someone else! The declared value is what the buyer paid for the item, not including shipping. The item is usually gift wrapped with a personal card inside as well. Is this wrong thinking?? Should the bride pay for a gift to her? I'd love to know how to handle this properly, and yes, mainly Europe and Canada.
posted on September 5, 2001 04:46:29 AM new
I state clearly in my auctions that the FVF will be the amount marked on the customs form and it will be marked as merchandise -- which it is.
As for the "drop shipping" question, the country is owed that money. So if the buyer is having it shipped elsewhere, they do so understanding that the duty will be paid by whomever it is shipped to. Period. They should make arrangements with the bride or groom and reimburse them for that portion of the gift.
Or more properly, have the item shipped to them, pay the duty, then ship it themselves as a gift.
It is NOT a gift from the buyer to seller and would be FRAUD to mark it otherwise.
posted on September 5, 2001 06:04:45 AM new
I'd better clarify this further.......the initial orders and payments are from US buyers, using US funds. The gift is sent out of the county to a 3rd party.
posted on September 5, 2001 06:11:36 AM new
Most of my foreign shipments are insured and I have to use the long customs form. The value of the item and insured value are both shown and when I am asked to reduce the final bid value, I merely reply that the insured value will drop as well. That usually ends the conversation.
posted on September 5, 2001 06:13:42 AM new
toleart -- Big difference! And I was thinking that just as I hit send. In my opinion (for what it's worth) you're doing the right thing in that regard.
posted on September 5, 2001 08:24:21 AM new
Glass demands insurance and I always include it in the shipping quote. I too use the long forms, but don't include the freight (often more than the item!)in the value, it just didn't seem fair to pay duty on the delivery. I've never been asked to declare anything other than the price paid, thank goodness or I'd probably lose a sale over it.
posted on September 5, 2001 10:05:02 AM new
I ship daily from a local post office; THEY kmow what I do. If I mark something as a gift, I am asking their complicity in a lie with criminal implications. No way.
posted on September 5, 2001 10:16:31 AM new
I have shipped hundreds of packages from Canada to the US and all over the world. I have NEVER marked it gift, I always put the accurate price, and I have never had a problem, no one has even told me that they had to pay customs duty. I really believe that honesty is the best policy!
posted on September 5, 2001 10:40:48 AM new
I do not believe I would want to put my reputation on the line, and have to pay a huge fine to boot...and who knows what elese....
A lovely English Lady received a package from me...not the first package she has ever received from the States...but apparently, the only package which HER customs decided to pay attention to, and she was charged £39...Thank goodness for both she and I, parcel was properly identified!....It is a game of cat-and-mice...
Of course, she said she will have to be very careful about her purchases from now on ..
********
Gosh Shosh! My "About Me" Page
[ edited by shoshanah on Sep 5, 2001 10:42 AM ]
posted on September 5, 2001 11:55:51 AM new
I just shipped a 100.00 45 rpm record to the uk this morning..I always list the value at 5.00 and check merchandise..My customers overseas have told me if you price it too high then the chance of theft is greater.
I can see their point in some countries..I have had at least 3 packages overseas that became lost. germany and spain are the worst for lost packages.
most overseas customers pay with cash and i have had at least 20 transactions go sour because it never arrived here. somebody is helping themselves to it somewhere.
posted on September 5, 2001 12:12:57 PM new
I think I should pass along a story here:
A while back, I bought a Statuette of Jill Valentine (From the Videogame Resident Evil) from a Seller in Singapore.
I got the package one day, and scribbled on two sides were:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MILLIE!! (FYI, no one in my family is named Millie, and I'm a Male, so don't get any ideas)
BEST WISHES ON YOUR BIRTHDAY!!
All this for a $60 Statue. And I never even bothered to tell the guy to mark it a "gift" (Which he did, and severely undervalued my bid for the item by $40 on the form).
My Postman was wondering "Who was Millie?" and "Are you a Trasvestite?" (Yes, he had the gaul to ask that, considering several of my Apartment Neighbors are either Open and "Very Vouyeristic" Lesbians or Transvestites).
Funny Customs never put two and two together, because the seller never bothered to "alter" my name in the Mailing Address.
:\\\\\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on September 5, 2001 02:43:13 PM new
Reply to "toleart"
Canadian Tariff Item 9816.00.00 00 states..."Casual donations sent by persons abroad to friends in Canada, or
imported personally by persons who are not residents of Canada as
gifts to friends, and not being advertising matter, tobacco or alcoholic
beverages, when the value thereof does not exceed sixty dollars in any
one case.".....FREE
You are handling your gift shipments to Canada perfectly...and lawfully. Please note that the $60 figure mentioned above is expressed in Canadian dollars. Your declaration of the value, presumably expressed in U.S. dollars, will be converted at the official rate of exchange on the day your parcel was mailed. If the value exceeds C$60, duty will apply to only that portion that exceeds C$60.
With respect to TAX, however, we get into a whole different area. The 7% GST (Goods and Services Tax) is applied to virtually everything that enters Canada. As well, provincial tax (anywhere between 5% & 11%, depending on the Province) is now being collected by Canada Customs. Bottom line? Someone in Canada receiving a substantial gift from the U.S. or elsewhere is going to have to pay something. Ultimately, if the U.S. gift-giver wants to have this item arrive at no charge to the consignee, he/she will have to make some private arrangement to reimburse the consignee for his/her expenses.
posted on September 5, 2001 11:21:47 PM new
To banffboy---
Really good information---thanks for offering your expertise. I have a hypothetical example that I would like your feedback on.
BTW, the internationals that I deal with
probably bid on my items because they can't
get them locally.
Here are two fictional situations:
I put up an item on ebay that routinely sells
at Wal-Mart for $12. I buy them for around $8 and sell them for around $10 on ebay.
This item is new and readily available in the U.S. but not outside of the U.S.
My buyer is a Canadian and wants this item so he bids higher than usual to make sure he wins. Bidding closes at $20 WITHOUT shipping.
Here is where I would like your honest input:
Would you A) put the retail value of the item
on the form which is between $8-$12 ot
B) put the amount that the Canadian paid for the item on the form----$20.? Many Americans would think the Canadian drastically overpaid but he is happy to pay a little more because
he can't get the item in Canada.
Now, I'll pretend I'm a buyer. I love
KATCHUP Potato chips. You can't buy them in
the U.S....but many Canadians have told me that you can get them (and many other flavors) in Canada. Let's say that they
normally retail for $6 Canadian (which is around $4 U.S.) for a 16 oz bag. The seller
sells two bags and I pay $16 U.S. without shipping. (I have money to burn). If you were the seller,
how would you fill out the Customs form?
Would you use the actual cost or the higher cost which I paid because I cannot buy them elsewhere?
Thanks for your (and anyone else who cares to respond) input.
posted on September 6, 2001 06:06:32 AM new
I always declare item as a gift, except for ballcards. With ballcards I enclose inside of a few sheets of notebook paper and mark "pictures do not bend" and it goes through as a letter. I don't even have to do customs form on it.
posted on September 6, 2001 06:54:02 AM new
I love the remark about the tariff being a few bucks. Last year I sold a scarf for a $165.00 the "few bucks tariff" was $135.00. If Canada had a war with France, its over now so get over it!
posted on September 6, 2001 07:01:00 AM new
I always write the final bid price. Period. No exceptions.
Marking it as merchandise is the only right thing to do. Marking it as a gift when it isn't is just wrong, no matter how you slice it.
professorhiggins: Let's say you sold your widget for $10, instead of the $12 it's worth. Would you mark $10 or $12? Same principle should be applied if it sold for $20.
I don't sell anything "new" that could have a current retail "value" -- so realistically the "value" of that particular item is what someone paid for it, all factors included. So I could sell one of something for $10 and one for $20 and their "value" would be $10 and $20 respectively. At least in terms of this transaction.
Prices guides typically show what someone else paid for something anyway. Actually valuing something is not an objective science.
Those potato chips have more value to you here because you cannot get them here. A person in Canada probably doesn't even think about them as having any more "value" than the price on the bag.
posted on September 6, 2001 07:51:17 AM new
why cant the government see that their beloved citizens are bringing wealth into the country-think of the national balance sheet
posted on September 6, 2001 05:45:46 PM new
To "professorhiggins" - "peiklk" took the words right out of my mouth. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Customs Value for Duty (VFD) is based primarily on the "transactional value" of the article in question. In other words, what the person paid for the goods. Market value is almost irrelevant. I say "almost" because there are certain circumstances when it actually IS used in determining value....say, when a shipper has declared the item with a ridiculously low value and no invoice is available to ascertain the "transactional value". But for the vast majority of international transactions, what a person pays for the goods is what will be the value, converted to Canadian funds, on which D&T is assessed.
With respect to the replies from "bidsbids" and "snakebait", ....hmmmmm. Legalities and the penalties for the transgression thereof aside, why would anyone want to jeopardize their professional business reputation by engaging in a fraud (i.e., smuggling) just to save their ill-advised customers money that, in reality, they damn well KNEW (or SHOULD have known) that they had to pay BEFORE they ever placed their bids? To condone this kind of behavior is to elevate stupidity to the level of a virtue.
"erost" - I'm baffled by your comment, "If Canada had a war with France, it's over now so get over it!". While it is true that on September 13, 1759, the British under General Wolfe defeated the French under General Montcalm at the Battle of Quebec, thereby establishing British supremacy in Canada, what has this got to do with the conversation at hand?
With respect to my earlier "remark about the tariff being a few bucks", I believe you are missing the point. Or perhaps I didn't make the point clear enough. Whether the consignee has to pay a little or a lot in D&T has, with respect, nothing to do with you. If your customer feels abused by his own government's taxation laws, that's HIS problem. And there are any number of avenues open to HIM to express his displeasure to his elected representatives who have the power to change the laws. But why allow him to drag YOU into the conspiracy to defraud his government. What could you possibly GAIN from such complicity? If you have worked hard to establish an excellent feedback record and are proud of your business ethics, I believe that you would not wish to put your excellent reputation at risk to satisfy a few greedy, misinformed customers.
Ultimately, when completing a customs declaration, we have a fundamental choice - to be honest...or not. How a person chooses to respond to this challenge speaks volumes...either way.
posted on September 6, 2001 06:02:10 PM newUltimately, when completing a customs declaration, we have a fundamental choice - to be honest...or not. How a person chooses to respond to this challenge speaks volumes...either way.
It might speak volumes, but it does not speak in either your language or mine.
posted on September 6, 2001 06:03:27 PM newWith respect to the replies from "bidsbids" and "snakebait", ....hmmmmm. Legalities and the penalties for the transgression thereof aside, why would anyone want to jeopardize their professional business reputation by engaging in a fraud (i.e., smuggling) just to save their ill-advised customers money that, in reality, they damn well KNEW (or SHOULD have known) that they had to pay BEFORE they ever placed their bids? To condone this kind of behavior is to elevate stupidity to the level of a virtue.
Well said, banffboy.
I have often asked why anyone would want to jeopardize their business by doing this.
And I was thinking that just as I hit send. In my opinion (for what it's worth) you're doing the right thing in that regard.