posted on September 6, 2001 06:18:14 PM new
Well I think I did say on a recent thread that I don't give a rat's a$$ how anyone else chooses to run their business.
But I do care that new sellers know the regulations before they decide how to run their business.
posted on September 6, 2001 06:28:59 PM new
The Banff Boy wades in again...
"roofguy" - Please clarify something for me. Are you actually advocating, in a public forum, dishonesty (i.e., falsifying customs documents) as a legitimate business practice?
posted on September 6, 2001 06:30:48 PM new
I've sent packages internationally for 14 years and marked every single one of them a Gift. Not a single problem.
[ edited by celebrityskin on Sep 6, 2001 06:43 PM ]
posted on September 6, 2001 06:32:43 PM new
From the USPS website:
123.712 Acceptance by Postal Employee (PS Form 2976)
The Postal Service acceptance employee must:
a. Instruct the sender how to complete, legibly and accurately, the customs declaration form, as required. Failure to complete the form properly can delay delivery of the item or inconvenience the sender and addressee. Moreover, a false, misleading, or incomplete declaration can result in the seizure or return of the item and/or in criminal or civil penalties. The United States Postal Service assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of information that the sender enters on PS Form
2976.
posted on September 6, 2001 07:02:19 PM new
My 2 cents worth. I deal with Customs in various countries on a regular basis. You have two choices-make Customs your friend or make them your enemy. If they are your friend they will actually bend over backwards at times to help you out. Get caught lying one time and they are your enemy. Sure, you save your customer some bucks but if you deal internationally with any regularity it can come back to haunt you; seen it numerous times. I am 100% aboveboard as I do not wish to jeapordize my standing or reputation and do not need the inherent hassles that come with getting caught cheating aka breaking the law. But it all depends on YOUR values. Like I said- just my 2cents.
posted on September 6, 2001 07:08:54 PM newroofguy" - Please clarify something for me. Are you actually advocating, in a public forum, dishonesty (i.e., falsifying customs documents) as a legitimate business practice?
Are you actually advocating, in a public forum, that people who shop at garage sales and avoid sales taxes should be distrusted in other matters?
posted on September 6, 2001 07:24:56 PM new
roofguy: no offense but I don't understand your reply or what it had to do
with the question bannf boy ask.
posted on September 6, 2001 08:15:34 PM new
"roofguy" - Nowhere, in any of my replies to this thread or elsewhere, have I ever stated or implied that "people who shop at garage sales and avoid sales taxes should be distrusted in other matters?" More to the point, what has this question got to do with the question I asked you?
It's a classic debating tactic - when confronted with a question you don't wish to respond to directly, use another question as a response...hoping the person asking the original question will get sidetracked by answering yours. Sorry. That ruse is as transparent as glass.
What people do or don't do at garage sales and what that may or may not say about their character is not at issue here...although I would eagerly welcome a debate on the subject in another thread.
Please stay on topic here...and please answer my original question.
"sun818" - perhaps you missed my earlier comments in this thread. If a shipment is examined by Customs and determined to be misdeclared, either to value, circumstances (i.e., gift)..whatever, the SELLER'S name is entered in Customs' computer database along with the Canadian consignee who will, of course, have to pay not only regular D&T but DOUBLE D&T as a fine for a first offence.
But why should the seller care? Right? He made his sale...he's got his money. Tout fini, oui? NOT !!
Every subsequent shipment the seller sends to Canada after having been caught in an attempt to defraud the Canadian government, not just to the present consignee but to ALL FUTURE consignees wherever they may be located in Canada, will now be pulled aside for further examination. If it is obvious to Customs officials that the seller is still trying to evade regulatory compliance, not just of Canada's laws but, as noted above in a previous message, with your own USPS regulations...that seller could have his shipments refused entry into Canada and returned...freight collect. Kind of a high price to pay for those few sales that "got through the net", don't you think?
I guess as long as neither seller nor consignee get caught, they both are deluded into believing that they "got away with it". But when you DO get caught (and you can't possibly know for sure that the next international shipment is the very one they WILL catch you on), the penalty is severe for BOTH parties to the transaction. I have no sympathy for the guy who wants to evade lawful duty and taxes any more than I have for the guy who gets caught speeding. In both cases, an individual knows or SHOULD know the law...and the risks and costs involved in flaunting same. He has no right to complain if he gets caught.
However, what I'm trying to do in this forum is to point out to the U.S. SELLER what he (probably unknowingly) risks by going along with such requests...at least from Canadian winning bidders.
posted on September 6, 2001 08:51:45 PM new
The risk of getting a fine (no mater how small the risk is) breaking a law,
risking your business and reputation to save a complete stranger in another
country a couple bucks ,who is aware they are putting you in a vulnerable
position is not a good idea.
all international buyers are aware of the customs laws (or they wouldnt be asking) and know it is you
who will end up in trouble.
keep in mind they are asking you to break the law.
you can do it a million times but it only takes getting caught once.
posted on September 6, 2001 08:57:01 PM new
And you should be insulted by their request. They are counting on you being
naive........or dishonest......either way an insult.
posted on September 7, 2001 05:09:52 AM new
Banffboy
I only meant it as a joke. I figured that it could only be a "personal" vendetta against France to charge so much which must effectively keep their exports out of the country. I mean the tarriff was almost 100%!
Who in their right mind would pay double?
posted on September 7, 2001 07:14:08 AM new
roofguy said "Others have often asked why anyone would want to jeopardize their business by not doing this."
And they can join the mob if they only want to engage in illegal business practices.
posted on September 7, 2001 09:28:18 AM new"roofguy" - Nowhere, in any of my replies to this thread or elsewhere, have I ever stated or implied that "people who shop at garage sales and avoid sales taxes should be distrusted in other matters?" More to the point, what has this question got to do with the question I asked you?
You seemed willing to declare sellers who filled out the customs declaration with buyer in mind to be fundamentally dishonest.
I found that silly, in exactly the same way and for the same reason I would find it silly to make such pronouncements about garage sale shoppers.
Ultimately, when completing a customs declaration, we have a fundamental choice - to be honest...or not. How a person chooses to respond to this challenge speaks volumes...either way.
You want me to answer your question straight out? Ok. I recommend following all laws. I suggest that some fundamentally honest people process such situations differently than you do, and get a different answer.
posted on September 7, 2001 10:04:13 AM new
roofguy said "You seemed willing to declare sellers who filled out the customs declaration with buyer in mind to be fundamentally dishonest."
Nope, you need to pay attention here.
I said and several others have, that filling out the form dishonestly is ILLEGAL. Period. No slicing it any other way. No way around that. It's WRONG. It's unethical. No amount of justification will change this.
A seller who would do this is NOT helping their customer by making them party to an illegal act. True, they may never get caught. SO WHAT! Right and wrong do not hinge on getting caught.
A thief commits their CRIME when they steal something. NOT when they are caught.
Not sure something this clear can be made any clearer. Unless you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
posted on September 7, 2001 11:49:10 AM newI said and several others have, that filling out the form dishonestly is ILLEGAL. Period.
Here's the text I quoted, twice before, and responded to. You didn't write it.
Ultimately, when completing a customs declaration, we have a fundamental choice - to be honest...or not. How a person chooses to respond to this challenge speaks volumes...either way.
posted on September 7, 2001 12:52:49 PM new
"breinhold" - "you should be insulted by their request."
A great insight ! I never thought of that but, of course, you (as a seller) SHOULD be insulted by the implication contained in the question. To take it a step further, the question that started this lively discussion, namely, "Can you lie on customs (forms)?", is perhaps (with no disrespect intended to "sun818" - I'm GLAD he asked the question) a question that a fundamentally honest person should never have to ask.
Since telling a lie is the direct opposite of telling a truth, you must understand what the truth IS before you can lie about it. This is the dilemna that some respondents to this thread find themselves in. They know in their hearts that, when they describe an item as a "gift" when it isn't or when they misrepresent the value, they are lying. But they try to justify the lie by doing it "so they won't lose sales" or "with buyer in mind".
This last reference from "roofguy" - "with buyer in mind" - now there is a clever euphemism if ever I heard one. (I wasn't drunk, Your Honor, I may have been pickled, smashed, polluted...but not drunk!) People like this don't actually "lie" on the form...they just complete it "with buyer in mind". By what process of convuluted reasoning can anyone justify completing a customs declaration with the "buyer in mind"? What has that got to do with putting the correct price on the form? If the guy paid you $50 for the item, say so! If it's not a gift, don't say that it is! Why is this concept so difficult to grasp for some people?
Actually, it isn't that difficult. Those who willfully commit fraud on customs documents know EXACTLY what they are doing. They are fully cognizant of right and wrong and simply choose "wrong" in the same manner that other misguided individuals decide to rob banks, believing that to be the path to untold riches. If you've decided for business or personal reasons, hopelessly flawed though those reasons may be, to misrepresent the facts on a customs form then nothing I or others in this forum could possibly say will disuade you from a course of action already predetermined. But please don't sugar-coat what you are doing when giving advice on the matter to others. What you are doing is wrong, illegal and comes with a whole bunch of consequences, not all of which are readily apparent to both parties to the transaction.
[ edited by banffboy on Sep 7, 2001 12:56 PM ]
posted on September 7, 2001 01:36:23 PM new
The question is much simpler than many of these posts indicate. I would abhor making a false statement over my signature, no matter how trivial or how serious the statement may be. But to those who are not bothered by false, signed statements- banffboy's very clear and precise arguments will fall on deaf ears. Too bad- a sign of the times?
posted on September 7, 2001 02:00:44 PM new
I recently posted a topic (customer is NEVER right on eBay) and this seller here hits the nail right on the head of what I'm discussing. The customer asked for a break but the seller couldn't/wouldn't do so. The customer can beg and beg and beg but bottom line here is that the seller says, "sorry no can do". Which is fine, no problem. But, the seller doesn't leave it at that instead they make the price HIGHER, "I'll show this customer".
My topic is about the lack of customer service and the lack of knowledge shown by some (not all) eBay sellers in this area. By putting the price higher the dealer probably won't be seeing another order from this person in the future. A lot of sellers on eBay believe that they are God's gift to merchandising and that they should be thanked, no worshipped for allowing people to bid on their auctions. Well, hello people, without customers there'd be no sellers.
Bottom line is sellers (I'm both a customer and seller by the way) you want to be really successful? Lighten up. Customers may make weird demands, incorrect payment, whatever but they are the ones with the money. Explain the situtation to the customer, bend a little if possible. You do no service to anyone by punishing them.
tcinorm2000
[ edited by tcinorm2000 on Sep 7, 2001 02:13 PM ]
[ edited by tcinorm2000 on Sep 7, 2001 02:13 PM ]
posted on September 7, 2001 02:24:48 PM new
When we were kids we on occasion would leave a penny or nickel on the train tracks in order to acquire a flattened novelty coin. The federal laws on the books said something like 3 years in prison for defacing legal coinage. There was almost no way in hell you'd ever get caught defacing coins and there is almost no way you'll get caught marking gift on a customs slip. Even if you did you could say it was a gift. Small items that can fit in a smalll envelope do not even get a customs slip from me. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you ... don't be anal retentive.
posted on September 7, 2001 02:53:28 PM new
the analogy of a penny on the train track is absurd. no federal agent ever
hung out on train tracks trying to catch kids but!!!!! this is the real
world , the business world and I must make a brutal point to all of you who
feel your chances are as slim as being fined for a penny on a railroad
track. YOU ARE ON LINE!!! not only is it dishonest to lie on the form it is
ILLEGAL and the only thing with less sense than breaking a federal law would
be posting your willingness to break the law.....on line ,in a public forum.
I suppose if you are naive enough to think you can never get caught you are
also naive enough to think you can wave you hand "screaming here I am you
can find me right here". it would take one federal agent to bid on your
auction ask you to lie and then just wait for the package. wake up its
illegal
posted on September 7, 2001 03:13:20 PM new
> My topic is about the lack of customer
> service and the lack of knowledge shown
> by some (not all) eBay sellers in this area.
You saved yourself there by saying "not all".
> By putting the price higher the dealer
> probably won't be seeing another order
> from this person in the future.
That's okay. I am completely aware of my motives and the consequences of this action. Some sellers want all the customers they can get as long as the buyer has money. I'm mindful of the people I interact with and it doesn't hurt me to filter this buyer out.
posted on September 7, 2001 05:51:19 PM newThe federal laws on the books said something like 3 years in prison for defacing legal coinage.
This isn't true. As a long time coin collector, I know there is no such law. You can buy "elongated cents" at any coin show, or throw a penny in the machine at Kennedy Space Center, and the machine will flatten it out and give it back as a keepsake.
only thing with less sense than breaking a federal law would be posting your willingness to break the law.....on line ,in a public forum.
