posted on September 7, 2001 04:02:34 PM new
Roofguy...buyer bears the responsiblity to make sure all terms are clear BEFORE he bids. Responsibility is a TWO WAY STREET, especially in ebay transactions. It cannot be expected that the seller alone bears full responsibility to communicate fully with every Tom, Dick and Harry out there...especially when some of those Toms, Dicks and Harrys are woefully lacking in any thinking skills.
The buyer also bears the same responsiblity to make sure everything he needs to know to make an informed decision is spelled out. If it is not, then he becaomes responsible for himself and needs to ask questions. To fail to ask and then say..."it is all the seller's fault, he wasn't clear enough" is a huge cop-out.
In this thread, the emphasis is on a BUYER who failed to take adequate measures to make sure there were no "surprises" when the time to pay the piper arrived. He failed at that responsibility. In another it may be the seller who is complaining because he stumbled in the responsibility department and a buyer is holding him to the TOS as it was written (but not as he intended it to mean)...then the seller can be chided for not making sure "the blanks were filled in correctly".
Uaru...a seller having the right to set his shipping at what ever he wants and Ebay's rules on fee avoidance are two different animals. In the case of the $8.50 quoted in this thread, ebay would more than likely NOT see it as fee avoidance. Ebay does not define what constitutes fee avoidance...no where! Safe Harbor seems to have a vague guideline, but from what I hear it is very vague and very subjective...which is very understandable because there are no hard and fast rules as to what shipping charges should be.
So, a seller DOES have the right to charge whatever he wants for shipping, ebay has a right to decide if it is fee avoidance, AND the seller has a right to contact ebay and discuss if he was in fact avoiding fees (which could come down to ebay backing off). But in cases such as was reported in this thread, the shipping charge was well within the NORM for mail order business (which is what ebay is) and was not unfair or gouging.
Sonsie...sales or marketing tactics have no bearing on this topic as it stands. You are perfectly right that a seller who is as clear as possible in his ads will probably have more sales....BUT no seller MUST follow those marketing techniques.
posted on September 7, 2001 07:25:30 PM new
I am so sick of folks who refuse to take responsibility for their behavior. The seller did nothing wrong. He/she has every right to set his/her shipping and handling charges at whatever level he/she desires. It's unfortunate that you didn't ask about the cost of shipping and handling prior to bidding. However, it is libelous, in my opinion, to call this individual some sort of huckster. The seller didn't make you bid without getting all your questions answered. You did that all on your own. You should have asked if you had concerns about shipping and handling, but you didn't. Now you expect the seller to pay for your mistake by eating the cost of the lost sale. Wrong. You should have honored your bid commitment.
posted on September 7, 2001 08:07:27 PM new
That seems a bit stiff for shipping- I suspect that the seller is using a retail shipper like Mail B.. Etc, These guys sometimes double the shipping costs and then add extra for packing materials. I recently shipped a 12 oz package to Ohio via one of these guys. It went priority with delv conf. in a standard priority mailer packed by myself - they charged me 11.00 and I know at the post office Id pay under 5.00 ouch ! I would have been embarrassed to even think of passing this cost on to my customer. Next time it goes to the Post office. If you see a crazy high postage fee on an auction - email the seller and ask why before you bid.
Mabe they will switch to a lower cost method of shipping.
ebay on !
What you say is absolute nonsense about the seller having the right to charge ANYTHING they want for S/H. Even in law, there are limits to what is reasonable in hidden charges or costs not fully agreed on before a transaction.
The burden needs to be on the seller to fully state any costs over normal shipping, at least by a certain amount. Anything over 2X actual shipping should be considered outright fraud, unless stated clearly up front - which few sellers will do since eBay would be able to clearly see fee avoidance.
posted on September 8, 2001 12:28:39 AM new
Anyone who has bought or sold for any length of time on eBay realizes that many people bid at the last moment and only scan the ending auctions looking for bargains. In such situations there is not time to email for a response. If the buyer reads only that the buyer pays S/H fees they should expect to pay a reasonable amount of shipping which would depend on the item being sold.
If sellers are charging more than what would be considered normal shipping for the item, they are not doing themselves any favours by not stating that in the auction.
In the first place, many bidders are reluctant to bid on an item because they are afraid of high shipping fees (especially if they have been a victim once before). This would result in a lower than expected price for the item being sold.
Secondly, to suddenly tell the winner that the shipping fees are far more than what would be considered "normal" is simply asking for trouble. The buyer may decide that the shipping fees are excessive and choose not to buy which results in no sale. Or the buyer may feel obligated to pay but then choose never to buy from that seller again. The seller either loses a sale or a possible future sale. It's a no win situation for the seller.
To suggest that a seller can charge whatever they like for shipping and handling would appear to be very short sighted and suggests a poor understanding of basic business sense.
posted on September 8, 2001 12:39:00 AM new
Right on Ptimko!
I suggest sellers talk to at least 20 or 30 bidders and ask them what they see.
I am always chatting about ebay to aquaintances, live, i-net, phone etc. One fellow told me that when an auction says actual shipping, he is in the drivers seat about how an item is shipped.
I laughed because I thought of a lot of people here who would think that unacceptable. We talked about price and USPS vs. UPS and he said that he'd tell the guy to ship UPS. I said, I never use UPS, "but it's cheaper," he replies.
I tried to explain that not everyone can or will work with you on method.
Anyhow forgive the ramble, but I think shipping should be as transparent as possible. Make it easy and happy for customers.
aaaaaaahhhh!
Edited to add: Make it easy for them to work with your existing system.
posted on September 8, 2001 01:19:27 AM new
Roofguy...to make your analogy more accurate the resturant would have to have a sign in the front lobby that said "This establishment charges the customer a 'seating charge' ". The seller in this case did advise the potential customer that there would be a "s/h charge", so your resturant would also have to advise that there was a "charge" for seating.
If the customer of the resturant were so irresponsible as to NOT ask just how much that "seating charge" was then they agreed to that charge no matter how much it was.
The other point that makes your analogy inaccurate is the fact of "standard practice". It is not standard practice in the resturant industry to charge a "seating charge", so if a customer were not advised BEFORE being seated that there was such a non-standard charge, the customer would have a very STRONG argument that he could not be expected to ask if there were a charge to be seated and how much it was before he was seated.
On ebay it IS standard practice for the buyer to pay the postage and many times some type of a "handling" fee. So the buyer, going into the transaction KNOWS that this charge is coming and therefore has no legitimate argument when he fails to question just HOW MUCH that charge will be when the seller hasn't spelled out the cost.
Snakebait...it isn't nonsense. My statement was that the seller had a right to charge whatever he wants as a shipping/handling charge. I said nothing about a "hidden" charge. A hidden charge is one that is not expected (see my points above) and not standard. Shipping and handling on ebay are not a "hidden" charge, although the exact amount may not be spelled out.
I totally agree that it is best for the seller to be up-front in his ad as to how much the s/h will be. but even when a seller does that we have seen whining bidders come here and complain about a "high" s/h charge that was CLEARLY spelled out in the auction.
Even if ALL sellers listed their s/h charges in the auction, including those some think are gouging, it wouldn't stop most buyers from bidding (even on the auctions with "excessive" charges). Most buyers on ebay are savy enough to know that the price of an item is the bid amount + shipping and they gauge their bids based on the TOTAL they want to spend. They ASK first before bidding!
The only ones who have a problem are the people who neglect to factor in the shipping in the total price they are willing to spend. They are the ones who bid on auctions that only state "buyer pays s/h" and are then peeved because the "great buy" turns out to be less than expected because THEY neglected to find out what the "added" charges were going to be. They failed to practice "safe, responsible bidding"!
And they really have only themselves to blame, no matter how much they want to shift the blame to the seller.
posted on September 8, 2001 01:39:54 AM new
Ptimko...the problem is, who defines reasonable?
On bidding at the last few minutes of an auction and not having time to email for a shipping quote...a responsible bidder just won't bid if he doesn't know FOR SURE what the shipping will be. He should NEVER assume his definition of reasonable shipping charges will coincide with what the seller feels is reasonable. to do otherwise is why we have threads like this!
Everything else you mention are marketing strategies. Most of the ones you mentioned are good ones that a successful seller will incorporate in his business plan. But this thread wasn't started to examine if it was better, business wise, for a seller to follow the strategies you outlined. It was started because a buyer forgot to follow the basic rules of the market place..ie; make sure you know ALL the terms before you bid! And the buyer then didn't like the predictible results of his lack of innattention to his responsibility to watch out for himself.
Much as it would be nice if every seller spelled out everything in minute detail so the buyer didn't have to do any thinking, the fact is that is never going to happen! So the reponsible bidder HAS to take it upon himself to make sure he KNOWS all the details first.
We each bear the responsibilty for our own actions (or inactions). INCLUDING bidders!
posted on September 8, 2001 04:47:45 AM new
I was going to reply, as this type of whine/rant/thread is often one of my faves.....Buyers who do not read/understand/ask for clarification before entering into a contract.
I see I do not need to reply........as always, Amy has things well under control.
Attagirl.......and I hope I can do the same for you some day.
posted on September 8, 2001 07:24:58 AM new
It can be completly Legal and still be considered Unethical and underhanded - Reminds me of Fast Cash Title Loan & home equity sharks - Everythings listed in the small print so its ok to take sombodys car or their house. What happened to treat others the way you want to be treated ? Telling bidders that they will be overcharged in your description is a bit better than saying email me for handling charges and sneaking it by.
posted on September 8, 2001 08:10:47 AM new
i recently sold an item to an ebay seller/bidder and aw member and shipping is stated in item description.
when it arrives and she noticed the postage is less,she emailed me and decide this is how much i should charge and ask for a 2.00 dollar refund .
i offered her a 5.00 shipping credit for future purchase.
she declined and went thru my feedback file of over 3000 and emailed every id who left me neutral,negative feedbacks plus all the current high bidders of my on going auction.
i forwarded her emails to me,to some of these past bidders to ebay and they responded,of course they did not say what they did,but this person is still selling on ebay.
this would be an act of violating,interfering and interupting ebay operations .
so go figure,you state the term and bidder is not happy.you dont state the term,bidder not happy.
if this were a mail order catalog like spiegel or macy,do customers write back and say i think this is how you should run your business,give me 2.00 back or else i would go thru your customer list and tell them about your practise and if i gather enough support,i will do something to you.
posted on September 8, 2001 08:28:45 AM new
I totally agree with ptimco.
I think if the seller charges WAY MORE then the "implied" shipping costs for that particular item then they are obligated to say so.
"Implied" meaning weight and a reasonable handling fee. And that to me would depend on the amount and type of materials used.
But...to charge double accual shipping cost then 2x that because they don't want to or can't combine...is their own damn fault to lose the sale if they can't state so in the auction.
WHATS THE MATTER WITH SOME OF THESE SELLERS?
Its tough enough to make a decent sale on eBay these days, then to put your sale at risk by not stating shipping prices or having a hidden shipping fee thats out of sight is just asking for trouble.
Maybe is good for us sellers that state our shipping costs as they will learn to bypass those that don't, but also how many bidders are we losing because they got took and NEVER come back?
If a seller is using a packing service to ship his/her items, then it seems that they would be well aware of the cost of shipping the items in advance. A responsible seller would clearly state these charges in the auction listing. A responsible seller would state that it is not possible to combine items in order to save on the cost of shipping. A responsible seller would provide as much information to the buyer as is possible.
I recently sold 3 old weekly publications as a group. I didn't know what the cost of shipping would be so I stated in my auction that the buyer would pay the actual cost of shipping. The item received no bids until the last day and I ended up selling it for my starting price of $1.00. I stated in the auction that if anyone was concerned about the cost of shipping that they should contact me and allow me 24 hours to respond.
The buyer was in the US (I live in Canada) when I went to the post office to determine the cost of shipping, I discovered that it was going to cost me almost Cdn $7.60 or just under US $5.00 to ship the item. I then wrote to the buyer, apologized for the cost, and explained to him that I didn't realize that shipping would cost so much when I listed the item. I told him that I would only charge US $4.00 for the total shipping and that the total cost of the item and shipping would be $5.00. I also indicated to the buyer that if they did not wish to complete the transaction I would not hold it against them.
I received the payment last week. I lost money on the transaction: my cost for the item and my listing fees. It would have been cheaper for me if the buyer had decided not to complete the transaction. However, I now have a happy customer and possible repeat business.
Yes, the bidder had a responsibility to contact me before the auction ended or pay the full cost of shipping. However, as a responsible seller, when I realized that the cost of shipping was probably more than the buyer expected, I also had a responsibility to try and work out a reasonable solution with the buyer so that they were happy.
By stating in the auction that the buyer should contact me for the cost of shipping ahead of time and allow 24 hours to respond, I did the best I could to warn them in advance that the cost of shipping might be high. Despite this, I went an extra step and offered to absorb some of the shipping costs so that the buyer would be happy. I can't always assume that the buyer is aware of how much it actually costs to ship an item I am be selling, that would be irresponsible. Had I known, in advance, the cost of shipping I would have stated it. It's was much easier to try and negotiate a mutual agreement to settle what was a potential problem with regards to the cost of shipping.
I'm not saying that the buyer in this case is free of all responsibility. However, the seller also had a responsibility to provide the buyer with as much information as possible so that he/she can make an informed decision before they bid. By not doing so, the seller has created a problem, now has an unhappy buyer and possibly lost future sales. Should the bidder choose to leave a feedback comment stating that he/she felt that shipping charges were excessive, the seller may even lose more bidders in the future.
As the economy slows down and unemployment rates rise there are likely two things that may happen:
1.) More people may attempt to start selling things online because they are unable to find work.
2.) Bidders will start spending less, and will not be as impulsive when it comes to online auctions.
Both of these will result in lower final sale prices for items being sold through eBay. Because there will be more competition for sellers and buyers who are willing to spend less. It is likely to become a buyers market. This is why customer service and customer loyalty are very important in a weak economy. Buyers will be more willing to part with their money if they have received good customer service in the past. They will want value for their money. They will avoid those sellers who do not provide good service and stick with those who do provide good service even if it means that they have to pay a little more for an item they wish to purchase. At some point it is no longer a question of "marketing" an item for sale, but a question of "surviving" in a weak economy.
posted on September 8, 2001 10:21:38 AM new
I know that everyone preaches the "ask before you bid" but I just had this happen...on a buy it now.
Bid on a 1 oz. metal beer opener,and found out AFTER I'd bought it that shipping was 4.00!
My solution was to mail them a SASE with my payment.Mail them a manila envelope,and then fold my return envelope in half within.
posted on September 8, 2001 10:45:19 AM new
I have decided that listing the shipping cost is becoming pointless as well, since I have had over 30 emails this week alone asking "What is the shipping cost for XXXXXXX"
And I list the shipping cost in ALL my auctions.
It just comes down to whether or not the bidders can read, and frankly I think most of them either can't or won't.
posted on September 8, 2001 05:01:21 PM new
My question is why would a legit seller NOT post the shipping charges in the auctions?
Over the years if the shipping charge wasn't in the auction I just wouldn't waste my time asking OR bidding. If you couldn't be bothered to tell me what the charges are then I couldn't be bothered to bid.
Now for some reason it seems to be the thing NOT to post the charge. I find myself sending several "Ask a Seller" notes every week sometimes every day because so many auctions don't have the price stated. So far no one has had unreasonable charges but I don't want to take that chance.
I also ask what form of shipping is going to be used. That also IMO should be stated in the auction. There are a number of sellers, and one in particular, that charge $4 or $5 and send First Class or Media for less than a dollar actual costs. To me that is unethical. You are charging Priority rates then you should mail priority. Otherwise it is sneaky and underhanded. It may not be wrong but it isn't right.
This was also important as I have a PO Box and one seller did not inform me until after the auction that she ONLY ships UPS. She claimed since she gets a deal on UPS she was doing me a favor. I would cheerfully have paid the extra 50 cents to have it shipped Priority and not have to go get it spending a dollar or more in gas and untold time. UPS is out of the ordinary and should be stated especially so those who can't get it delivered by that method can opt out before bidding. Or at least give the bidder warning so that the bidder can make arrangements.
One seller recently stated his charges including how much for each additional item. I agreed to it by bidding. The total for shipping came to $18.25 (First Class option - which would have been over $30 for Priority). The items arrive Priority with $5.95 shipping in a USPS free box twice the size needed. While I know I agreed to the shipping costs I was still a little put off that a deal wasn't offered in good cheer to lower the costs to say $10. That would have brought me back as a customer before I received the package. What really blew it for me in ever going back was that all the items were loose when I received it and there was NOTHING for filler such as packing peanuts, bubble wrap, newspaper, plastic grocery bags, heck not even an invoice! I paid over $12 (tripling the shipping cost) for handling and all I get is the rough kind!
I know it is the bidder's responsibility to ask questions before bidding but it is the seller's responsibility to do their best to not hide anything so that they have to fall back on that, "Well, THEY didn't ask."
When I was selling I did my best to be sure there was no need to ask a question. I always stated charges and forms of shipping. I always tried to provide at least 2 options on shipping via USPS and also a UPS option. In the case of shipping outside the states I provided a link to the USPS so the bidder could determine the costs. Since I don't know what country a bidder is from that was the best I could do.
If you can't or won't provide the exact costs then you should provide the info to enable your bidder to determine the price such as originating zip code and weight of package.
Also, in my descriptions I included everything from measurements (in both standard and metric) to dates. If it was a book then the number of pages was included. If it was specifically a licensed item that was noted. If a CD then the song list needs to be there. Whatever it takes to give the bidder the feeling they are already holding the item in their hands.
A seller should do whatever it ethically takes to keep the bidder from hitting the back button. On that, paragraphs help! I don't like a foot long description with no break but then neither do I like bells and whistles like backgrounds and midi music and inch high lettering. I don't like hunting for the info like shipping (often the second thing I look for). I don't like having to ask. I reflect that in my feedback. I always give a positive if the transaction went well but if the seller did a stellar job and had a good description with a great layout I state that.
I will add that I had HAPPY and REPEAT customers and for those who did have a dispute they usually couldn't say much because more than 99% of the time their issue had been addressed in the still accessable auction description.
Finally, isn't in the seller's best interest not to have spend the time to return emails all the time?
Thanks for letting me rant on one of my current peeves!
Oops! Mis-spellings!
[ edited by another_smith on Sep 8, 2001 05:39 PM ]
posted on September 8, 2001 05:38:48 PM newMy question is why would a legit seller NOT post the shipping charges in the auctions
This discussion regards sellers who are other than "legit".
THEY do it to increase their income, or at least that's what they're trying to do. What's a hostile customer worth? If a seller can collect an extra $3 but create a hostile customer, is that a good bargain?
Some sellers think so.
This very thread is a good reason why people read negs. You can only rip off so many buyers without getting negged, and a neg for excessive shipping with "should have asked" is just what neg readers are looking for.
posted on September 8, 2001 05:39:44 PM newit is the seller's responsibility to do their best to not hide anything so that they have to fall back on that "Well, they didn't ask."
No, it's not. Ever hear of Caveat Emptor? Let the buyer beware. How many crummy used cars have been sold because the buyer didn't take the time to further investigate the item being purchased?
I think we're all on the same page here. No one likes it when sellers are slippery in their wording, or when they "lie by omission". But I disagree with comments who proclaim that it is a seller's duty to disclose every single underlying fact about an auction.
For example, I have an S&H rate that factors in all my overhead expenses. I am sure that numerous sellers do as well, and that rate could very easily be $4.00. That could include $1.26 for postage and the rest go to gas, PO BOX rental, business bank account fees, shipping envelopes, tape, peanuts, boxes, self-stor rental to hold all the inventory, etc. etc.
The buyer should evaluate the total cost of bid+S&H. If it's a good price, bid. If not, don't. Don't come here and bellyache about poor pitiful you didn't get a dollar off your ship charge on an item you paid 25% of retail for !!
posted on September 8, 2001 05:50:25 PM new. I would cheerfully have paid the extra 50 cents to have it shipped Priority and not have to go get it spending a dollar or more in gas and untold time. UPS is out of the ordinary and should be stated
UPS is out of the ordinary? They are probably the biggest shipper of packages in North America. And they don't "gouge" on tracking and insurance.
I guess you would "cheerfully have paid the extra 50 cents" so that this seller could make a special trip to the post office just for you and wind up "spending a dollar or more in gas and untold time."
so those who can't get it delivered by that method
Last I heard, UPS delivers to anywhere in the USA. (actually to most places in the world, but there is a customs brokerage issue to places out side of the US) If it's a matter of not being home when a deliver is made, heck, UPS is cheaper yet to a work address.
[ edited by Microbes on Sep 8, 2001 05:55 PM ]
posted on September 8, 2001 05:56:10 PM new
It seems like some sellers are really in the shipping business. They could sell anything because they are going to make money on the shipping no matter what else happens.
posted on September 8, 2001 05:58:23 PM new
I usually check out the shipping before I bid. If I don't and the seller trys to gouge me then he's lost a sale and if he wants to exchange negs no problemo, I can do that too. If I fail to play 20 questions with a seller and the seller thinks they can take advantage of that then they are wrong.
posted on September 8, 2001 06:05:01 PM new
wbbell said:
The buyer should evaluate the total cost of bid+S&H. If it's a good price, bid. If not, don't. Don't come here and bellyache about poor pitiful you didn't get a dollar off your ship charge on an item you paid 25% of retail for !!
-----
Don't come where?
I don't think I said that charging a handling fee was a bad thing. Nor did I say I was poor or pitiful.
I only stated how I felt about it and why I wouldn't be going back. I paid and I didn't complain. I did have a gripe about paying $12 for a box the post office provides for free and not even a quarter's worth of filler.
As long as the charge and FORM of shipping is stated I don't have a problem with it. I get to make an informed choice.
But along those lines and what you stated earlier about including all your overhead in your handling charge, when you go to a store at the mall (or anywhere else) do you expect to pay what the tag says or would you be a little put off if they added several dollars over and above the cost and sales tax for payroll, rent, electricity, property taxes, costs of accounting, etc?
The overhead costs at a store are covered by the cost of the items even if you pick it out of the clearance bin.
If you aren't getting that covered by your item price then raise the price or add a reserve.
Most people don't mind paying a reasonable cost at a retail store to have their purchase shipped somewhere though as that is over and above the usual services like a bag and a thank you.
And, just because it is an auction does not mean it is less than retail let alone 25%.
I guess we all make assumptions and should give a break once in awhile to those who do it to us.
[ edited by another_smith on Sep 8, 2001 06:06 PM ]
[ edited by another_smith on Sep 8, 2001 06:08 PM ]
posted on September 8, 2001 06:16:01 PM new
My theory is that if a seller doesn't disclose the shipping price up-front, I assume (cynic that I am) that they may attempt to pad the price at the end of auction.
By e-mailing and asking them the cost before I bid, I feel this keeps the seller on their toes. I've always gotten reasonable shipping using this method.
I wonder how much more they would have charged if I hadn't asked?
posted on September 8, 2001 06:18:58 PM new
I agree that the seller should have stated his shipping cost. The funny thing is that if we order an item from a catalog we would pay around the same for shipping yet we are all po'd that the guy has the nerve to charge $8.50.
posted on September 8, 2001 06:32:02 PM new I did have a gripe about paying $12 for a box the post office provides for free and not even a quarter's worth of filler.
Did you ask the seller what you were getting for your $12? Did you try to negotiate him down?
My whole point here is that your perception of what is "reasonable" applies only to you.
This seller may have adopted a business plan where he adds $5 extra added profit to his ship fee, and he may be a new seller or unfamiliar with eBay, and feel this is perfectly reasonable.
Will this cause him to lose repeat business? Probably. Will this cause people to get irritated and leave him negs? Probably. Is it "unfair" - "illegal" - "against eBay rules" - etc. - for him to do this? No.
Do you ever order from any mail order catalogs? In many cases, those ship prices are outrageous and nowhere near their actual cost. The Disney Catalog is what I particularly have in mind, but there are tons of others. How is this any different?
In your case, a price was stated up front. If you want the stuff bad enough, you agree to pay it. Yeah, sometimes the seller may do something you don't like and you may feel wronged, but it doesn't (necessarily) make the seller some sort of evil entity, ripoff artist, con man, etc. .
[ edited by ptimko on Sep 8, 2001 12:33 AM ]
