posted on September 7, 2001 10:37:12 PM new
I have read all these posts and only one by tcinorm2000 hints at my question.
Suppose the seller IS retallitory as the very first poster was and does inflate the value or even just does it out of ignorance (I have seen this reflected in feedback).
What recourse does the recipient have?
Does the recipient have to accept the package?
And, for banffboy, the customs agent personally, if you received a package that had been wrongly marked what would you do?
posted on September 7, 2001 10:56:02 PM newDoes the recipient have to accept the package?
No, but by this point you've paid for it, and if you refuse it the item will be returned to the sender. Now they have your money, and the goods.
What recourse does the recipient have?
Pay the fee, then take the issue up with the folks at Customs. Customs fees can always be disputed, and if you have enough evidence to prove exactly what you paid for the item, you can indeed get reimbursed.
posted on September 8, 2001 02:07:43 AM new
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 17--COINS AND CURRENCY
Sec. 331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States;
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
-------------------
You're right about any seller that posts in a public forum being open to get caught by an agent of a foeign government, although the odds have got to be very long in my book. I never, ever use my true identity on a public forum and urge others to adopt false identites when doing so. Big Brother is watching you.
posted on September 8, 2001 03:16:06 AM new
"another_smith" - "kiawok" has pretty much given the same answer I would have.
You can certainly refuse the package but then you face the dilemna where, as "kiawok" points out, the seller has, by that time, both your money as well as the goods. Even if the seller acknowledges the error and cooperates fully in providing you with documentary evidence to support a Customs Refund Claim, you still have the issue of who is going to pay the return S&H to the consignee the second time around. Considering the time, effort and expense involved in making the situation "right", I'd simply swallow the extra dollar amount and move on.
However, if you are dealing with a seller who DELIBERATELY inflated the declared value of the shipment just to make the consignee's life more difficult at the other end, then I would certainly NOT be sending the package back to HIM. In this case you would be dealing with a totally unprofessional seller and there is no telling WHAT value he would put on the package, given another chance !
I can't believe that there are sellers who would do such a thing as over-declare the value of a shipment just to "teach the guy a lesson" because he had the "nerve" to ask for a reduction in the value in the first place. What would be wrong, in such a case, for the seller to simply refuse to reduce the value and to declare the actual value paid...the way any honest, professional seller would do without a second thought? Why the mean, vindictive, I'm-gonna-teach-you-a-lesson attitude? How do you think such sellers would react if THEY were subjected to such treatment?
"kiawok" - a small point. You said Customs fees can always be disputed... This is basically true but, depending on the issue, perhaps not so easy to do successfully. If the issue is simply the inclusion of shipping charges in the Value for Duty, then perhaps a copy of the eBay listing, hopefully showing what the shipper was going to charge for S&H, would probably be sufficient.
If, on the other hand, you want to dispute the rate of duty (or, in other words, the Tariff Item), the issue is a little more problematic. You will have to be sufficiently well versed in Customs law to provide the specific alternative Tariff Item you wish Customs to apply to your importation...a practical impossiblity for most people. Customs officials themselves are under no legal obligation to re-assess your importation just because you are "dissatisfied" with the rate of duty applied to your shipment or that you feel you "paid too much". So, in cases such as these, unless you have a friend who works "on the line" or is employed by a customs brokerage firm, you'll have a tough time obtaining a refund of D&T.
posted on September 8, 2001 06:49:27 AM newWhoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States,
The key word is fraudulently. No intent to fruad, it's not illegal. (triming gold off coins in the old days, and then spending them was fraud, flattening a penny isn't.)
posted on September 8, 2001 06:51:07 AM new
Banffboy
I assumed another_smith meant if the seller jacked up the value [for whatever reasons].
This of course is not always done deliberately, but some sellers figure if the insurance is for $50 [USPS standard rate] then that's what they also put as the value.
IMO any buyer purchasing an item from out of country should make sure to let the seller know in advance that the "value" should only be the "high bid" amount as they will be taxed/tariffed on the value placed on the Customs form.
Thanks for the answers. It seems to me that inflating the value out of malice would also be lying on the customs form.
However, as "kiawok" pointed out, people will inflate the value just to be sure such as in insurance when you are standing in line at the post office and you think, "geez... I can't even remember what is in this box, I'll just say..." Maybe you are the neighbor just doing your friend a favor. Who knows? In one feedback the amount in duty became more than triple what the item was won for. I think it would be worth refusing the package. Seems that if the seller wished to get angry and difficult then it could be pointed out as a form of mail fraud. As a seller I would rather pay the cost of re-sending the package than compensate for the extra duty I forced on my customer. I would also include something extra for their time (and that WOULD be gift).
It would seem that if you (the duty payer) had a printout of the auction(s) you could take that in and not only would that unequivocally state the purchase price but hopefully the shipping costs too, as well as what the item is. Of course I have never had the experience so would like the feedback.
When I was selling I put a copy of the specific auction(s) in each package along with a note (invoice) including both our addresses. It wasn't just for show. Somewhere I am sure it is a postal suggestion but, I always thought if for some insane reason my well-packed item was separated from its packaging the post office would be able to put the item(s) back with the owners. I only had one package disappear and I still think that was a story to get the money refunded. Paying 85 cents for insurance to get a $20 refund and the item seems like quite a deal. I did have a few packages take a silly long time to arrive. Thank the powers that be for postmarks.
Is there some web site that explains what gets what duty and tariff from which country? That would be helpful before you make a mistake and buy a scarf from France.
As far as sellers that would over declare the value to teach a lesson - banffboy cheered on the first poster for doing just that. That is what disturbed me.
I think the post pointing out that packages go missing the larger the declared value is also probably very valid. While I have never had a problem with Canada, Italy has been a huge disappointment. I will not deal with that country again.
I have a number of friends in Canada (things just happen) and like to send them stuff which so far has been below the $60 Canadian mark (although that is getting harder). I always worry because these packages truly are a gift that it will be disputed and I will never know. I don't want to include receipts since these are gifts. I also hate having to state the contents as they are gifts and last time after listing the contents I wrote "Please cross this out before delivery as this is a birthday gift."
posted on September 8, 2001 07:42:01 PM new
"another_smith" - I went back and re-read "sun818"s original post and his further comment on 9/07 at 03:13:20pm. It would appear that, as you said, "sun818" was condoning and/or practicing the tactic of over-declaring the value of an item to teach the purchaser a lesson. Further, my reply to "sun818"s original post does appear to cheer him on.
I apologize to the group for my misunderstanding the implication contained in "sun818"s original post. At first glance, I was happy that "sun818" was a seller who did not give in to a request from an international consignee to lower the value so as to evade domestic D&T. He is to be commended for that, at least. However, if he was over-declaring the value....this I can not go along with and reject out of hand as a proper response to the problem. I think I've made clear in an earlier post to this thread how I view such tactics. They are misguided and punitive and I certainly don't want to be seen as endorsing them...as I apparently did. Thanks, "another_smith" for pointing this out.
The question of "excessive" D&T has been raised here and in previous posts. The general rule-of-thumb that all Canadians who import something from the U.S. is this: the landed price at your door in Canada will usually be DOUBLE the U.S. sale price. This takes into account the exchange on our money (presently 57%), duty (if any - rates vary depending on the goods), 7% GST (Goods and Services Tax), provincial tax (up to 11% depending on the province the consignee lives in) and excise tax (rates vary) on certain "luxury" items. And don't forget the $5.00 charge added to every such shipment by Canada Post for collecting the Customs fees.
This is what every Canadian faces when he/she purchases any item from abroad. The NAFTA only eliminates the duty on such shipments, nothing else ! This is a source of major misunderstanding by Canadian importers. They've heard the term "free trade" tossed around and think that all U.S. purchases should land at their door free of charge. When they have to pay a bill they weren't expecting, quite often in their ignorance of the law and how it's interpreted, they lash out at the shipper for not cooperating with them in lowering the price on the declaration. Obviously, they are directing their anger/frustration at the wrong person. But I believe that this is the source of it all...simple ignorance of the law and how it's enforced. However, that's not the shipper's problem and he should refrain from any action that aids in the circumvention of the law.
"another_smith" - your suggestion that the importer could simply take the eBay printout in to Customs and confirm values and shipping costs sounds reasonable...until you understand how the system works. In the "old" days, packages would be held at a commercial customs office and a notice would be sent out advising the consignee to come down to Customs and pick up his package...bringing all relevant documentation with him. This was fine when most people lived in the bigger towns and cities that had Customs offices. For others, it was a major inconvenience. So, about 20 years ago, in an effort to reduce government overhead and to make it more convenient for all concerned, it was decided that Customs would assess D&T based on the declaration on the package and then, if all was kosher, send the package on to the consignee's address where he could simply pay the bill and get his goods. No more trips into the city, parking fees, etc., etc. Overall, it has worked splendidly. But there is a problem when a package arrives with an incorrectly completed declaration...or NO declaration. Customs officers, who have been trained from Day One to "protect the revenue", then have to use their best judgment and place a value on the goods as best they can. This is where legitimate claims can be made by the importer...but only after the fact...and at considerable cost and inconvenience. Most just pay up and move on. It's not a perfect method, I concede, but overall it gets the package in the hands of the consignee faster than the old system and with minimal inconvenience to importers in general.
As for not trying to indicate the contents of gifts because you want them to arrive as a "surprise"...I'm sorry...no can do. If packages were allowed into the country simply on the basis of a foreign shipper declaring the contents as a "gift"...it would result in chaos. What is the gift? Perhaps it is a prohibited importation...perhaps it is valued in excess of the C$60 limit...perhaps it contains plant or animal material that might inadvertantly introduce a deadly pest, or worse, into the country. These are just a few of the considerations that a Customs officer must take into account before allowing the package to proceed to its destination. Believe me, the laws are not as arbitrary as they might first appear. There are genuinely good reasons for them being in place.
There is a website where Canadian duty rates, as well as a lot (not all) of Customs regulations, are published...but it's tough reading for the average person untrained in international law. Also, I'm not sure how often it is updated. Officers "on the line" receive almost daily updates to their books of regulations and Tariff Items. I would not trust the site as the final authority. For those who are interested:
posted on September 9, 2001 01:12:27 PM new
> What would be wrong, in such a case,
> for the seller to simply refuse to
> reduce the value and to declare the
> actual value paid...the way any honest,
> professional seller would do without a
> second thought?
Up to this point, I have always done that. And after this incident, I will continue to do so. I just don't appreciate a buyer asking me to lie and instructing me on what I need to do for his benefit:
"wanted to request if you could put a customs slip on the package when you sent it to me (I live in Canada)"
My response: "I always send a customs slip
with packages to Canada. It will be marked as Merchandise $24.77"
"and if you could, can you please state the value, on the customs slip, to be less than $20...if you could write $19 or so, and tick merchandise, that would be greatly appreciated "
My response: "I will put $24.77 and mark it as merchandise. I'm not risking getting in trouble with customs."
> Why the mean, vindictive, I'm-gonna-
> teach-you-a-lesson attitude?
It would do me good to sleep more. I can't keep up with this 90 hour work week. I admit it was not the best call to make.
> How do you think such sellers would react
> if THEY were subjected to such treatment?
I will say that I would never put a seller in a difficult position by asking them to lie on a customs form.
posted on September 9, 2001 01:54:04 PM new
Again... I just post it in my TOS. International Bidders -- Customs value will be the final value of this auction. NO EXCEPTIONS. Works for me.
posted on September 10, 2001 01:01:09 AM new
Thanks banffboy and kiawok for answering my questions. This is why discussions like these are so valuable. Either I had no idea or didn't realize or wasn't thinking.
$5 just to deliver on duty due items?! Whoa! I had no idea. I wasn't thinking about the little towns (like Upper, Middle and Lower Musquodoboit as well as Musquodoboit Harbour that I visited in Nova Scotia - Best we could figure is it is pronounced Mosquito Bite). I remembered my friend in Toronto complaining about having to go down to customs and fight over a package. Now that I think of it though the idea of customs offices with blinking neon signs of course dotting the entire country is hilarious. Thanks for letting me know how it really is.
I also didn't think about the GST and PST. As far as I know state to state mail order doesn't involve state tax but if you bought a car (for instance) from a state with no sales tax the state you live in would probably assess a tax when you register the vehicle. Canada though has a much lower tolerance. I think the two taxes together added to the higher, albeit Canadian currency, prices across the border tend to negate any advantage of exchange rates. Just want to point out I am not dissing just observing.
In my case the one gift I sent was a pair of locally made and not outrageously expensive (although lower than the max $60c) but very nice earrings that I think would be hard to place a value on and, a small bottle of flavo(u)ring syrup for coffee/cocoa. I realize it would be stupid not to declare the contents of the package even on a gift as that if nothing else is for sure going to get your package flagged and opened. I only meant that I hated stating the contents and values on the package and wished that those could be eliminated before delivery. Could you tell me if customs or Canada Post is willing to do that?
However, it did not occur to me that people would send silly items (and I have been at eBay since 1997) like organic items or something dangerous. I did think about someone who might try to mail drugs though.
Finally do all packages go through Customs first before going to the individual postal offices or ...?
I do appreciate the link. Seems the easier the better but it doesn't matter what you try someone will find away around it. I also understand political shenanigans between countries even if I don't condone it.
Thanks for putting up with my ignorance. Good discussion folks!
posted on September 10, 2001 09:31:15 AM new
"another_smith" - It would be nice to think that Customs and/or Canada Post would obliterate any reference to the contents/value of a gift just to be nice. Alas, they have no legal requirement to do so and, in the rush to get the goods moving, seldom do. It would be up to the individual Officer. However, in the case where D&T is applied to the "gift", because the gift was valued in excess of C$60 for example, at least 2 copies of Form E-14 is attached to the outside of the box, listing everything in detail so that Canada Post can collect the D&T from the consignee and the consignee can see at a glance how that figure was arrived at.
What is not common knowledge by the locals here is that Customs officials are located at most major inland centers in Canada, not just at the border. Items arriving via parcel post, for example, first arrive in Canada at the major postal sortation facilities - Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary, Vancouver, and others. Since "Posties" have no idea what is and what is not subject to D&T, ALL international mail (other than common lettermail) is set aside for Customs examination. Every day, Customs officials come in to the sortation plant and go through "the pile", weeding out what they believe are items on which D&T is likely to be applied. The rest are released to Canada Post for local delivery.
The packages that are kept usually fall into 2 categories - ones with good paperwork or those with none. Those with good, clear paperwork (i.e., an invoice attached to the outside of the box or a legible, "believable" declaration), will have D&T assessed and will proceed downstream to a clerk who will enter all the pertinent data into a computer, print out the E-14 and attach same to the package. Then the package is released for local delivery.
The other articles have to be opened to see what the goods are and if the shipper left some clue inside the box as to the value or circumstances of the shipment. If there still is absolutely nothing in the box, other than the goods themselves of course, the merchandise will be "appraised" and assessed D&T accordingly. In the group of officers that are on mail plant detail there will always be a senior official who will have many years experience in assessing value to a wide variety of items. If, however, no one has a clue as to what the article might be worth...say...a one-of-a-kind craft item or work of art...outside experts will be contacted. One way or another, a value will be arrived at and D&T assessed. In such cases, it may take days to come up with a value and have the goods sent on their way. It's not difficult to imagine that, in the meantime, the consignee has been in touch with the shipper complaining about the "delay" in receiving his goods.
Then there is the final class of goods which, in the view of the officer, have been deliberately misdescribed or where the circumstances have been misrepresented. This is where we would find the article declared as a "gift" with an invoice inside ! Or, more often than you would imagine, a copy of the correspondence from the consignee to the shipper asking him to knock the value down or describe the goods as a "gift" so as to reduce or eliminate D&T ! That was always good for a chuckle among the boys - unimpeachable proof, in his own handwriting, that the consignee was attempting to commit fraud (i.e., smuggling) and the shipper's possible compliance in the conspiracy.
Reference is than made to the computer database to see if either party involved in this transaction is on record as having tried this little caper before. If not, the normal fine for a first offence is DOUBLE D&T. If so, the fine will be assessed at the discretion of the senior officer, taking all evidence into account. In such cases, a notice will be sent to the consignee advising him that the item has been seized by Customs and why...and how much it will cost him to get it back. If he refuses to pay, the goods will either be destroyed under Customs supervision or sent to a central facility for future auction.
So, as you can see, there is a lot more going on behind the scene than most people realize.
posted on September 10, 2001 06:40:38 PM new
off topic, I know, but:
Kiawok, where was that picture taken? I just got back from Banff, & it doesn't ring a bell. (of course, in your pic the sun is shining, it was overcast and rainy most of last week!)
The outrageous customs fees charged by some countries is criminal in themselves and amounts to theft and extortion. I see little difference between the Mafia, a mugger , and a Customs Agent. All pond scum. With the snivelling beaurocrat the worst.
Although we stand a chance of getting in trouble lying to our own Gestapo, twisting the truth to the piddling apparatchiks of other countries is neither truly illegal or immoral. And it is certainly not dishonest to lie to a thief.
I for one would not let the evil minions of a beaurocracy gone awry dictate whats right and wrong TO ME!
