posted on September 9, 2001 03:00:33 PM new
Time and again there are threads on the boards complaing about the "excessive shipping" sellers "spring" on buyers after the auction is over. Everytime these threads surface someone says the seller should be stating the shipping amount in the ad as that would stop the buyers from feeing "ripped off".
Well...I'm here to report that this position is HOGWASH!!
I recently sold a punch bowl and seven matching cups. The bowl was heavy and the package was going to weigh more than 5 pounds. I also expected the set to sell for between $100 & $200 (it sold for $153).
As is my practice I checked the box that says "see item description for shipping costs". In the auction I stated shipping and insurance would be $15. The $15 amount was my best estimate of the postage, insurance and material costs. It was a flat fee that applied to shipment anywhere in the US.
I DO NOT state anywhere in my ads that the customer pays exact postage.
The customer has just emailed me...his set arrived in good condition, as described in the auction..BUT, he noticed that the postage and insurance was $12.25 and he was charged $15 shipping ..."Will you explain WHY I was charged $15 for shipping when the package shows $12.25?" says my customer.
Mind you...the item was packaged in a NEW 14"x14"x14" box that costs me about $1.25, the items were lavishly wrapped in bubble wrap, the box had yards and yards of tape wrapped around it so it couldn't break open, and I used a purchased shipping label. Total cost for packing materials was about $1.75.
So...here I have a customer who was told up front (before he bid) what he would be charged for shipping, He was charged NO more than what was listed in the auction. Taking postage, insurance and packing supplies into account he paid a $1 handling fee over and above the actual costs to ship the item....and the customer seems to think I "ripped him off" on the shipping!
posted on September 9, 2001 03:04:12 PM new
Did you tell him what you just told us? Maybe that would be enough. I think most buyers are reasonable. He could have fired off that email without stopping to think about it.
posted on September 9, 2001 03:20:18 PM new
I emailed him a nice little email that told him I was glad his item arrived in good condition. I explained the $15 was my best estimate of the postage, insurance,and cost of packing supplies, and told him "enjoy your new punch set!". I did not even attempt to get into the shipping charge any more than explain how I arrived at the $15 figure.
Hopefully he will accept my explanation...but it is really kind of silly to complain that you were charged more than actual postage when you were never led to believe you would pay exact postage only...and you were told up front how much you would be charged to get your new treasure safely to your home!
Ain't selling fun? (to answer my own question..yes it sure is, even when you get the somewhat off base customer!)
posted on September 9, 2001 03:25:39 PM new
>"Will you explain WHY I was charged $15 for shipping when the package shows $12.25?"<
>Taking postage, insurance and packing supplies into account he paid a $1 handling fee over and above the actual costs to ship the item<
If you emailed him that I'm sure he would feel better and probably understand. From the looks of his email I would guess that he was looking for an answer, which you provided us with quite nicely.
Stating the shipping amount in the TOS won't solve all problems but it will help a few.
A statement like....
"buyer to pay a flat $15.00 to cover shipping, insurance and packaging costs"
....rather than....
"shipping $15.00"
.....should help.
I do have a question about the following....
>The $15 amount was my best estimate of the postage, insurance and material costs.<
If that was an 'estimate', would you have charged more had it cost you more than that to ship?
Also, did the TOS have the word 'estimate' or 'flat rate' for shipping?
As I read it, the buyer didn't really say anything about being 'ripped off', he mearly had a question on the shipping charge.
posted on September 9, 2001 03:35:36 PM new
Soldat2...my auctions state "Buyer to pay $x.xx for shipping (includes insurance)". For 4 years this statement has passed the test...this is only the second customer out of maybe 7000-8000 (or more) customers who has questioned the shipping charge. Many times my estimates are below the amount it actually costs me to ship and I have NEVER asked the customer to pay more!
posted on September 9, 2001 03:38:05 PM new
I ask my self this every time I see a post like this or get a comment from a buyer.
If they were buying this item from any other large mail order catalog companyt would they Write and call days weeks or evan month after month for a year or more asking for this information I know mail order companies charge upwards of 15% and more of your purchase price for shipping.
I have purchased items from catalogs where what I bought was $150 and the shipping was $35 and I myself wouldnt have charged over $5 to ship the Item priority if I had sold it. http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
Email [email protected]
posted on September 9, 2001 03:45:31 PM new
I would say that a $15.00 shipping charge is quite reasonable given what the item was and the type of packaging that was required...
I am curious, however, how you managed to find the time to come here and give us a detailed explanation of your shipping charges and complain about this buyer and yet couldn't find the time to provide a more detailed explanation of your shipping charges to your customer...
posted on September 9, 2001 03:46:55 PM newthis is only the second customer out of maybe 7000-8000 (or more)customers who has questioned the shipping charge.
Sounds to me like it stops the vast majority of complaints?
IMO I think that's all "most" reasonable buyers are asking for.
posted on September 9, 2001 05:19:49 PM new
"Everytime these threads surface someone says the seller should be stating the shipping amount in the ad as that would stop the buyers from feeing "ripped off".
Well...I'm here to report that this position is HOGWASH!!"
"For 4 years this statement has passed the test...this is only the second customer out of maybe 7000-8000 (or more) customers who has questioned the shipping charge."
Amy, if you've had this statement work all but twice in 7 to 8 thousand transactions, I'd say it's a huge sucess, not hogwash.
posted on September 9, 2001 06:30:34 PM new
Argh...it may be that my shipping charges end up so close to the actual postage that most customers never give it a second thought. After four years of selling the same type of merchandise I am able to estimate the postage, insurance and materials cost with enough accuracy that most buyers feel my charges are reasonable.
And it could also be that those who are not happy just never let me know.
Soldat2...no offense taken sorry if it sounded like there was...its hard to convey the tone of a comment with the written word only!
Ptimko...a detailed explanation was sent to the buyer within a few minutes of reading his email..before I came here and posted
Actually I wasn't complaining about my customer but was using the situation to illustrate that even with being totally upfront with the shipping charge so the buyer had no surprises does not guarantee the buyers won't still complain.
Kiawok...you may be right and what I do is enough to satisfy "most" reasonable buyers. And although I think the vast majority of both buyers and sellers on ebay ARE reasonable and fair, there is that minority that is unreasonable and extremely vocal about their disatisfaction and that extreme vocalness makes it LOOK like there is a WAY BIGGER problem with excessive shipping charges than there really is.
I personally think that there are really very few problems, even with those sellers who only state "buyer to pay s/h". I think the vast majority (maybe about 95%+) of transactions go off without a hitch...the vast majority of the sellers are charging what the majority of the buyers consider a reasonable shipping charge, there is really only a small amount of fraud that occurs, etc. Unfortunately, we normally only hear about the "bad" transactions so the problems seem much more extreme than they really are.
And of course we only hear one side of the story and we don't know what really happened. We don't know if the complainer is themselves being unreasonable.
posted on September 9, 2001 07:18:53 PM new
If you only have one or two of these out of thousands, it's probably just a full moon. Time wasters like these are why I charge MORE for shipping. I have never had a complaint, but those who fail to give me addresses or provide bad ones are worthy of a special charge.
posted on September 9, 2001 07:31:47 PM new
I have close to 1000 transactions, and also state in my TOS the buyer pays s/h, along with the amount. I have never had a problem with the s/h amounts until this past weekend. I had two different buyers from auctions that closed on Friday night email me, both threatening negatives if I didn't charge them less for shipping!
One of the auctions was for a ladies size large Hanes heavy sweatshirt - buyer said she "always pays only $2.00 or $2.50" for s/h for other sweatshirts and can't believe I have inflated the s/h! Please tell me where you can get such cheap shipping - I want to sign up!
If either of the buyer had an issues with the s/h, why couldn't they have clicked on "ask seller a question" before they bid? That is included also - "Questions? Please email me BEFORE you bid!".
Live and learn, it takes all kinds...but I must admit, these two buyers certainly make me appreciate some of the buyers I have had in the past that I thought gave me a hard time!
posted on September 9, 2001 07:43:27 PM new
amy..when i have something over 5 lbs. I state in the ad "depending how far you live from iowa the postage will be 8.40 to 11.45" as an example. I never charge handling charges and state so in my auction.
I pack everything the day the auction goes off and weigh it and when i get their zip I give them an exact quote. so far this method has worked well for me.
I can afford to buy tape and bubblewrap from my profit on my sales..i try to buy cheap and sell high.
Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, some people are going to complain. You could probably charge less than the actual postage and still get complaints from some people...
There are many people on eBay who do not sell things, sometimes they don't realize the actual costs involved in shipping an item once it's been sold. Nor do they realize the cost of listing an item and the final value fees that are imposed once the auction has ended...
In a regular retail environment, all of the extra costs associated with the business are rolled into the final price of an item. An auction environment makes this virtually impossible since the seller can only control the opening price of the item and not it's final sale price. If a seller tries to include all of his/her expenses into the start price they may make themselves uncompetitive and receive fewer bids and decrease the amount of sales they do. It's a very difficult environment in which to make money.
What makes it even more difficult is that those who are trying to use eBay for making a regular income compete with those who are simply trying to dispose of unwanted items.
The only way full-time sellers are able to really compete with those who do it on a part-time occasional basis (or as part of a hobby) is to offer excellent customer service in the hopes of building a regular customer base. Unfortunately, this means that the full-time sellers often have to offer unnecessary explanations, tolerate people sending the wrong forms of payment, answer strange and unusual questions and still keep smiling...
In some ways a regular retail outlet is easier. Starting with a fixed price the retail salesperson can always give a reluctant customer a small discount or offer an incentive to conclude a sale. In an auction environment, the seller still has fixed costs and sometimes sells an item for more than expected but sometimes sells an item for less.
The high final prices don't appear as often as a seller would like and so they can't afford to give a discount because they need to cover the losses from those items where they didn't get the price they expected. Certainly all sellers are allowed to include an additional "handling" fee to help offset some of their expenses. But I question those who try to roll all of their expenses into the "handling" charge. They would be better off raising their start prices to avoid selling items at a net loss given the cost of the item being put up for sale.
There will always be sellers who start all of their auctions off at one cent or one dollar and are willing to take whatever the market brings, these will generally be part-time or hobby sellers who are not really interested in making money but are just trying to dispose of things. However, if final prices continue to fall on eBay, many full-time sellers will have to respond by raising their start prices so that they can actually make money while keeping the shipping and handling charges in line...
As I mentioned earlier, I think for the situation described the shipping and handling charge was quite reasonable. I'm guessing that the buyer was probably someone quite new to eBay. Most experienced buyers would realize that "shipping charges" are not the same as "actual postage." The only solution seems to be to offer an account of the charges involved and hope that the buyer learns about the types of costs that sellers incur while conducting business on eBay. Many buyers, especially new ones, need to be educated by the sellers so that they learn what kind of costs they are expected to pay for.
posted on September 10, 2001 12:30:13 AM new
Well, I got a reply from my buyer. He wants a refund for the $2.75 because he interprets "buyer to pay shipping of $15 (includes insurance)" to mean "exact postage".
He also had to inform me that he is also a seller and he "never includes material costs in his shipping as it is tax deductible". Plus he "would not have bid if he had known the material costs would be included in the shipping charge" because he "never pays for packing materials".
He ended by saying he has discussed this same type of thing with ebay and the postal inspector and it is considered "mail fraud".
I let him know there would be no refund...so I expect I will be getting a negative soon
posted on September 10, 2001 02:09:01 AM newHe ended by saying he has discussed this same type of thing with ebay and the postal inspector and it is considered "mail fraud".
mail fraud? over $2.75 for handling/supplies?! amazing. just hope he sounds as absurd when/if he leaves a neg.
kittyx3
booboo
[ edited by kittykittykitty on Sep 10, 2001 02:10 AM ]
posted on September 10, 2001 02:11:31 AM new
Good grief, I am assuming he got the punch bowl at a fair price and you were honest.
You did write him a nice explanation about how you arrived at the $2.75 fee. He has too much time on his hands! Plus, and this is a real pet peeve of mine, no one who buys and sells on ebay should have the right to say how how another seller must operate his or her
business. Just because he never charges for packing supplies, doesn't mean that you can't.
I will admit very proudly that I like to
get a good deal.
Case in point: I bought something at
Target that had a 30 day best price guarantee.
Item was for X. At Target they were charging Y which was about $3 cheaper. Its only $3
and I could've let it go, but I was going back to Wal-Mart to pick up something else and figured...Why Not. I got the lower price and saved $3 I didn't consider this abuse.
You are not a retail store and he has WAY to much time on his hands. His line about mail fraud sounds like BS. Even if he actually did speak to his PO I would hope that the Government has better things to do than to fight you for a petty amount.
Just put a line in your TOS that says the cost is for shipping and packaging costs.
posted on September 10, 2001 03:24:41 AM new
Good Grief Indeed! (Is that possible?)
Even if the postage only actually cost a couple dollars (with insurance of course) it shouldn't matter if you didn't try to deceive him about how much the shipping would be and how it would be shipped. He had the choice of whether to bid on the item or not. I don't care what a person wants to claim the handling charge is for as long as the price and form of shipping is disclosed and it arrives well packed and safe. If the shipping is disclosed as $5 for media mail then I can move on if I find that unreasonable.
It is also his choice to decide whether he will charge for his own packaging or not. For smaller sellers it isn't a big deal to wad up the Sunday Paper or reuse what they have been sent.
It would help to specify what was included in the "shipping" charge or to explain how carefully you pack (this re-assures skittish buyers) but to beef over a wonderful, no doubt reusable box and yards of bubble wrap just goes to show you can't please some of the people EVER.
Keep all your records, emails, etc till this blows over. If he negs you keep the records forever and then respond with the facts. "Item $153, postage $12.25, packaging $2.00 (or whatever). Charged $15.00 as stated in auction." Then post a follow up on his feedback to the positive you already left. Don't know what the wording should be for that though.
How can anyone be willing to pay $153 for the item and $12.25 for the shipping and then quibble over $2.75?
Have you considered asking him to return the box and packaging materials in good condition and you will issue a refund then?
ptimko - I think some generalizations were made. Yes, some people sell part-time but that doesn't mean they don't want to get as much as they can. Not all sellers who start out at low prices are just playing. It works well for them. I know one in particular that it works very well for. Part-time sellers also need to offer good service. For sure part-time sellers still get the unusual requests, wrong payments and complainers. Part of eBay's charm is that anyone can sell. Because of the sweep of eBay though many things that were once hard to find are now at our fingertips.
I don't think that retail is any easier just different problems. Both retail and auction based need to be able to make adjustments. For auctions like just about everything in this world it is often supply and demand/what the market will bear. Dare I say I remember when the first hand-held calculator and digital watch came out (vaguely of course). Those items weren't give-aways at that time. I also remember paying over $500 for a VCR that while it was still the best VCR I ever had the last one I bought brand new with same features was less than $75. I was also more willing to program the very first VCR (binary I think) than I am to even bother now. I have seen a few retail businesses locking the doors lately. If it isn't working for you anymore then you need to make it work a different way. It isn't fun nor what you might want to do but it is the way it is. I personally would like stop having birthdays.
I also think that retail gets their share of bozo requests, wrong payments, complainers. I worked in a store, we have stories to tell. Ask anyone who sold beer/tobacco what excuses they were given.
Regardless I don't think discounts should be given for anything to do with auctions but combined shipping versus charging twice the amount for two items won, etc. Imagine. "If bidding goes over X amount there will be a 10% discount." That in itself is frustrating for bidders because if no one bids against them up to that amount it doesn't get reached. I do think offering free shipping with "buy-it-now" is clever though.
posted on September 10, 2001 03:45:21 AM newHe ended by saying he has discussed this same type of thing with ebay and the postal inspector and it is considered "mail fraud".
LOL! What a hoot! Has he seen the post office auctions on eBay? Felonious, by his definition. And, with whom at eBay did he discuss this...on a Sunday? Mighty big of the postal inspector to be in on the conference call, too...on a Sunday. Yeah, I chat with the ole postal inspector all the time.
Stand firm, Amy. This is too ridiculous for words..or, OTOH, if he's right, be sure to tell us which prison you'll be in so we can write.
Here is the proof that this buyer's "opinion" that he overpaid for shipping isn't mail fraud. Not that you really need any, but sometimes it feels better to have it in writing for yourself.
Also, how many times have we read here that eBay doesn't seem to care if sellers charge (sometimes quite a bit more) than actual postage? So eBay is all of a sudden on his side...right...
posted on September 10, 2001 04:54:00 AM new
>Have you considered asking him to return the box and packaging materials in good condition and you will issue a refund then?<
There ya go.......another_smith has the answer!
Email the buyer and tell him as soon as you receive all of the packaging material back you will gladly send the difference!
>He wants a refund...<
>he interprets...<
>he is also a seller...<
>he "never includes material costs...<
>he "would not have bid if he had known...<
>he "never pays for packing materials...<
He, he, he......this is NOT his auction!
(although I would be VERY interested in seeing his offerings and TOS) I'd like to see how he words his so I can interpret them MY way too.
...and this one takes the cake....
>he has discussed this same type of thing with ebay and the postal inspector and it is considered "mail fraud".<
Sorry, FAT chance! I, as have many others, have contacted ebay over shipping charges and they could care less. All those dutch auctions for .01 and $7.99 shipping for EACH item is perfectly legal so I really don't think they (ebay) will give a hoot about your charges.
posted on September 10, 2001 05:07:40 AM new
Ridiculous! There is nothing to discuss and the packaging cost does not need to be itemized.
Your auction clearly stated that shipping and insurance would cost $15. Period.
It makes no difference whether you paid $14 or $6 to ship. You told any potential buyer up front that the shipping was $15 and they could choose to bid, or not. Once they bid, they accepted that shipping would be $15.
You did the right thing by firmly stating that there would be no refund. I'd not engage in any further e-mail contact with him.
posted on September 10, 2001 07:24:30 AM new
another_smith
Obviously I made some generalizations, as I was trying to illustrate a point. I agree that not all part-time sellers do it for fun, in fact I don't know anyone who wouldn't rather get more money for every item that the sell...
I'm also well aware of the types of problems that exist in a retail environment. I worked in a privately owned men's wear store for several years. I was given the opportunity to buy it when the owner decided to retire but decided to go back to school instead. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision but I guess time will tell...
Anyway, the two points I was trying to make are:
When someone sells in an auction environment, the inclusion of a small "handling fee" which is typically the case when someone states a fixed shipping rate is not unreasonable. I only sell on a part-time basis, but I'm not going to run to the post-office or calculate the exact cost of postage for every item I sell. I'm simply going to say that the shipping for this widget is $xxx. If the buyer doesn't like it he/she doesn't have to bid. So far I've found that sometimes I've over-estimated by a little and other times I've under-estimated by a little...
The second point is that in an auction environment the seller cannot control the final price since as you stated it's a case of the current market. Some weeks a widget will sell for a good price and other weeks it won't. The only control that the seller has is in the opening price. Sometimes it's difficult to set an opening price that will allow the seller to cover all expenses because he/she may not get many bids because of competition which can start at a lower price for an identical item...
It's difficult to speak to general issues without making generalizations. When I write as such, I'm not trying to include everyone and no one should suppose that I am...
By the way, I still own one of the first LED programmable scientific calculators made by Texas Instruments, and the digital watch that I wear everyday is over 20 years old. I've had it for a very long time...
posted on September 10, 2001 07:53:07 AM new
I guess this guy has never ordered something through mail order catalogs or online??? They ALWAYS get more for shipping than the actual postage! (And usually, it's MUCH more!)
Or does he just sue everybody for fraud? Geez, what a loon.
posted on September 10, 2001 08:41:50 AM new
if you feel like it, remind him that character assassination (can't remember if its slander or libel...) (false charges of mail fraud) are grounds for a lawsuit. And that you've made copies of all the emails, IP addresses, and sent them to your lawyer.
I know its not professional, but from my experience most of these "you broke the law I'm gonna get you" types turn chicken real quick when confronted with a solid case that THEY have broken the law and could be in big trouble. If he actually does contact anyone (lawyer, USPS, etc) they will back you up, not him.
posted on September 10, 2001 09:32:42 AM new
Email him and send him a new bill. You forgot to charge for your time ($10.00 per hour, minimum 1/2 hour) and include the time it takes to expain to him why it cost $15.00 to ship it to him. You should be due another $10-$15 from him.
