posted on February 8, 2002 07:13:18 PM new
I had a buyer today post two neutrals on two auction, they were an overseas buyer, and the items never showed. I gave them a refund before I filed a claim (it takes 75 days for an insurance claim on an international package) and they still gave me a neutral. That plus another one a couple of weeks ago from a buyer who never replied to me, claiming I never contacted them...
This certainly has me thinking about the way I leave feedback. I currently leave feedback after they buyer pays, but I think I might change my model to leave feedback for the buyer after they have confirmed receipt of the item. I don't care if they leave feedback for me, but at least it gives me an option if they leave neutral or negative feedback...
posted on February 8, 2002 07:23:32 PM new
Yeah, it stinks when you leave immediate grateful feedback and the other guy doesn't reciprocate. FWIW, when I do check that "overseas okay" box, I do so with the stipulation that delivery is in no way guaranteed. Unfortunately, some countries have less than honest postal/customs employees...
posted on February 8, 2002 08:52:46 PM new
Never Understood getting Mad at the seller for lost/stolen mail,they need to direct thire anger at the shipping company.Thire the ones who lost/stole your item not the seller!
as far as not leaving Feedback first,it helps but it is not fool proof,many neg any way without thinking.So hears a thought,E-bay should give a 3 day work out period when somone is going to leave a Neg.This way you are alerted of a protential Neg and can Work somthing out.Oh wait that would be to seller/Buyer frendly,never mind.
Just take your negs and move on they go away quickly in a sea of praise!!
posted on February 8, 2002 09:21:34 PM new
Yeah, you will get negs anyway, but at least I don't have to leave a positive if they give me negative feedback. In this case, I would consider it a not so good transaction, if I tried everything I could (including giving a refund about 2 months before I will receive anything from the insurance claim, assuming they fill out the paperwork) - I would consider that a negative experience to be dinged after all I did...
posted on February 9, 2002 01:11:12 PM new
Leaving feedback upon receipt of payment is NEVER a good idea. Feedback should accurately reflect how the other party handles the entire transaction (of which timely payment is only a small part).
posted on February 9, 2002 04:52:42 PM new
My policy stated in my auctions since my first Neutral is that I will post feedback once I receive notification, either by e-mail or feedback, that the item was received in good order and that is my policy to resolve any issues before doing so.
To illustrate, I received my second Neutral last week from a buyer who claimed in the feedback that the merchandise was defective/broken/whatever. In 2 months since the auction end, they NEVER contacted me once to say they received it or that there was a problem. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I sent a polite e-mail inquiring as to the problem and why she never contacted me for a replacement or refund but posted such feedback 2 mos. later. Her reply?
"I regret to hear that you are unhappy with my feedback. I felt like it had
already been awhile sinse receiving item that it was just a learning
experience, that is why I left neutral feedback not negative."
Huh? It had been a while so she was so magnaminous enough to leave a Neutral INSTEAD of a NEGATIVE? The implication almost seems that I INTENTIONALLY sent a defective item!
Well, I told her that her response would determine as to the nature of feedback I would leave for her. Had she admitted being hasty or provided a polite and reasonable explanation for leaving feedback without contacting me to resolve the problem first, I may have left a positive, neutral or even no feedback. But her flippant manner told me that this was no reasonable person so I left her a factual negative which, in my opinion, was correct. Not out of anger or spite but a negative experience due to her lack of following proper protocol and insinuations. I pride my self by running an honorable business and have little respect for those who are not honorable in their dealings. I could have easily turned a Neagtive/Neutral experience into a Positive one had I been given the opportunity. I understand that many will think it is a harsh line to draw but I feel srongly about honor in business.
posted on February 9, 2002 06:22:41 PM new
I don't think a seller leaving a factual negative after receiving a neutral or negative that was unwarranted is retalitory feedback (That was a long sentence) - To me, retalitory feedback is if the seller was in the wrong, the buyer left feedback, and the seller left negative, or the classic case of the seller leaving negative, and the buyer (aka deadbeat) leaving a false negative to retaliate.
Same thing happened to me, I received a neutral (which is harmful) and I left a negative. We have since resolved that through squaretrade, so that is gone (but if I could not have left a negative, it would still be there) but this last one really burned me because a lost package is not my fault as to why it is not there, and I took responsibility and even gave the refund MONTHS before I will see from the insurance claim. And I still get 2 neutrals (It was 2 auctions they won) - Can't believe it! I have changed my policy now after posting this message, I no longer will leave automatic feedbacks. I will wait for them to email me (I ask them to in the message, and on the invoice) and make sure they are satisfied. I figure this will at least mean that I won't get these unwarranted negs or neutrals.
posted on February 9, 2002 06:49:59 PM new
For what it is worth you ought to be grateful that the buyer did not leave you negatives.
In their mind, they paid for an auction and never received the goods. That is not a positive experience. Refund or not, insurance or not, they did not get what they thought they getting. SO they left a neutral. If it is a very factual neutral, you should simply add a note and move on.
Although you are not legally responsible for the shipped items to reach their destination, most buyers will hold you to a higher standard. Accept the fact that it was not a positive experience, the fact that you scored a neutral shows that you did try really hard to resolve the situation. I have a feeling that the buyer really wanted to leave a negative, but felt better than that because of the service after the sale that they received. You took a really bad situation and got it back to a neutral. For that you should be happy and not mad.
posted on February 9, 2002 07:15:29 PM new
I don't think so though, I had a lot of communication with the buyer, gave them lots of options (including buying something else from my inventory) - If I said that they would have to wait til the insurance claim was paid, then I can understand getting a neutral, but considering everything I did, I think a neutral (that stated that item was never received) was not a very nice thing to do. True, a negative would be worse, but at least now with my new policy, I could give them something other than glowing feedback, esp. since I won't get the money back for months.
posted on February 9, 2002 08:16:11 PM new
Hi all,
I had a few negative experiences with sellers, but because they handled the situtation so quickly with partial/full refund or replacement, I left them a positive feedback. I feel that accidents will happen, but when the seller tries to do something to at least meet me half way, they deserve a positive.
One buyer left feedback that insinuated I had intentionally left "certain significant" parts out of a game that were crucial. He never e-mailed us to see if they just got left out (which they did), we found them. Maybe this is wrong, but since he ruined my perfect feedback, I kept them.
If he had e-mailed us, we would have mailed them to him in less than a week.
posted on February 9, 2002 09:41:11 PM new
I had a buyer not happy with an item that got damaged. Even though it was fine when I sent it, I offered a refund, and she never took me up on my offer. She was a very unpleasant person to deal with. I didn't intend to give her any feedback let alone a positive, but in my rush I did give her a positive (one month after the auction). The next day I got a neutral form her complaining about the damage. She had waited so I couldn't retailiate.
It left a bad taste in my mouth, and right now I decide not to leave feedback indefinitely. I am boycotting ebay's current feedback system.
posted on February 9, 2002 09:48:49 PM new
"For what it is worth you ought to be grateful that the buyer did not leave you negatives.
In their mind, they paid for an auction and never received the goods. That is not a positive experience."
But, the complaint should be with the shipper, not the seller. The seller is not hand delivering the package and is not responsible for a package in the hands of a 3rd party.
posted on February 10, 2002 03:01:39 AM new
Seller dishonesty or gross incompetence rates negative feedback, we all agree on that, but if it's just a case of "poop happens" and the seller tries to make amends, that's commendable. I have found on-line sellers to be more willing to make appropriate adjustments for bad situations than a lot of "bricks and mortar" merchants.
posted on February 10, 2002 06:01:34 AM new
Certainly the complaint should be with the shipping company - that is the legally correct answer. However, it is very natural for a person to be disappointed with the seller when they bought two items and the items did not show up. And eBay provides the buyers of the world with a tool to help communicate their experiences. The seller may not be culpable in the least, may offer refunds or other items, may place the refund now instead of 75 days and all of that is good.
However, the bottom line is that the buyer did not get what they thought they were getting from this transaction and left a neutral. Perhaps not to you, but to me a neutral is screaming 'not positive, yet not negative.'
There are many buyers that would have taken these same set of circumstances and given a positive (from your wonderful customer service) to a negative (never received the items). Your customer chose a very neutral route. That was their opinion and it shows that you at least turned the bad situation (never received item) into a neutral.
Your actions do not demand a positive or even a lack of feedback. They demand what the buyer thought of that transaction. Period.
You can change your method and timing of feedback to whatever way you feel is best. If you would rather wait to send appropriate transaction related feedback after the item has been received, you may do that.
If it makes you feel better that the next time you can retaliate against a bidder/buyer/customer, then do so. I believe that your overall feedback ratings will suffer if you move towards the retaliation model of feedback.
Please keep in mind that it is possible for two people involved in the same transaction to have different ideas on how that transaction was handled.
posted on February 10, 2002 06:09:04 AM new
How about an official eBay policy that feedbacks can not be granted until the transaction is completed. The buyer would HAVE to leave the first feedback and a seller would be blocked from leaving the feedback till the buyer left their feedback. Now it would be the buyers getting the retalitory negaitive feedbacks for once. eBay could MAKE the seller respond with a feedback after the buyer left their feedback, within a 15 days period let's say.
Does any of this proposal make sense? I've done about 5,000 or 6,000 online auction transactions and have less than 2,000 feedbacks and I've left a feedback for 99.9% of the tranactions. If the buyer wants a feedback he must leave one. There maybe a lot of neutrals given but those are fairly harmless and understandable.
posted on February 10, 2002 06:11:38 AM new
TO alwaysbroke,
I am sorry that your perfect feedback record was broken, mine was broken recently as well. It hurt when it happened.
But not to ship parts of a game that were left out simply because the buyer gave you a negative is a bit childish. The bottom line is that you are now acting like you deserved that negative. You should take the high road, send the items to the buyer and add a note that items were shipped to the feedback that was left.
Yes, the buyer should have emailed you first. But they did not. You still have an opportunity and a moral obligation to get the items to the buyer that they thought, in good faith, they were purchasing.
posted on February 10, 2002 06:17:40 AM new
mjdarby,
While your line of logic makes a lot of sense from a buyers perspective.... lets look at it from a sellers perspective. If a seller goes through all these extra steps of customer service and expends a considerable amount of time and money working with the customer to provide a satisfactory solution, why should they suffer with a nuetral or negative. The seller has actually provided the buyer with service above and beyond what is usually necessary for a transaction. This behavior should be commended, not punished.
On the flip side... think about what people so often label as "retalitory feedback." If a seller is forced to put all this extra effort into a transaction and receives a less-than-satisfactory result (i.e. Nuetral or Negative Feedback), why should they leave a positive feedback for the buyer. Obviously the transaction has caused them more work, extra stress, a blemished public record, and in some cases monetary loss. Why on earth would anybody leave a positve feedback for a transaction like that?!? I firmly do not believe that it is "retalitory" at all. It is simply an accurate portrayal of how the seller feels about the transaction.
posted on February 10, 2002 06:48:08 AM new
No one is forcing you to spend extra time and effort.(But you better do it anyway) You chose to be a seller. You can either do it via auction route or open a store that has bricks. Either way, every transaction will not go right. Some customers are happy and will return. Some are happy and will not. Others are disappointed and will return and others are disappointed and will not. Some are just neutral. Every transaction stands on its own legs. You are not going to win every time. The tough calls are always going to be the tough transactions. Just because you spent the additional time and effort to please a customer, does not a happy customer make. You do it because it is the right thing to do. You do it because at the end of the week/month/year you have a plusses than minuses. You do it because some of the minus transactions appreciate what you do and how you do it. You then get a customer for life. You do it because you want to be able to walk through town and sleep at night.
But just because you do it, don't expect me, as your buyer/customer, to tell everyone that you were great. I expect these things from you. I really do. I expect that when I give you my money, my items will promptly show up. If they don't, I am disappointed at you the seller. I might also be disappointed in USPS/UPS/FedEx, but I am disappointed in you. After all, I gave you the money. It is only natural for me to be upset with you.
That behavior of yours WAS commended by me leaving a neutral.
Please read that again. That behavior of yours was commended by me leaving a neutral. You turned an obviously bad transaction into a neutral. But please do not expect me to say anything positive about it. That would be untrue and unfair.
Yes, you worked hard on this deal to make it correct. Yes, overall, I was made whole again. That is why you got a neutral. I expect all of extra work when things go bad. To do anything less would have resulted in a negative.
If you lost money on every transaction, you would be out of business. If you had no customer service, you would be out of business. Face it, some transactions are tough and will result in you losing money.
That is part of being in business.
But at the end of the week/month/year a business with excellent customer service can look at its neutrals as victories and its transactions that lost money as the exceptions, the customer for life list growing, and the overall profitability rising.
posted on February 10, 2002 07:24:22 AM new
If a buyer was required to leave feedback before a seller could, just think how buyers could take advantage of that. They could not send payment; be extremely rude and any countless acts, then not leave the seller feedback and not have to worry about getting a negative.
I wonder why ebay is stubborn to change the current feedback system. They could adapt Half's style which is a little better.
Also, if a newbie buyer comes in and racks up 50 positives, and now turns as a seller, the feedback means little or nothing about how they may handle their business.
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Feb 10, 2002 07:27 AM ]
posted on February 10, 2002 08:13:48 AM new
I suppose the seller could still file the NPB report and after a few of those the buyer is gone. The seller would get the satisfaction of having part in getting rid of the bad buyer. You wouldn't see any 'deadbeat' feedbacks but after a while the deadbeat would be gone. Ebay could really emphasize the importantance of buyers not getting too many NPB reports or being expelled from the site.
posted on February 10, 2002 08:31:02 AM new
First off you did not only give me the seller money you gave the SHIPPING Company money to handel the Transaction.I just paid them with your money for shipping when I send the Item for you.So after you the seller give your item to the shipper,It is Very Much out of your hands!!
People need to direct there anger to to right cause of grief.The Shipper for lose o theft.The postal service will have you fill out a forum,and send you a big Fat,Were Sorry in the mail.Mabe that is all sellers should do it works for the post office,so why not?
also there is a slew of strike fast Newbies Negging without contact lately.So now I "Live by the Sword".I don't really think it will matter much,those negs go away quickly in a sea of positives.
posted on February 10, 2002 02:46:26 PM new
I know how I'm going to handle feedback because I'm an angry buyer.
When I started winning bids, I left feedback for everyone, and I found that even after a reminder e-mail, about 30% of the sellers weren't being as kind. Now I'm not going to leave feedback until they do.
My opinion is that the seller cashed my money order or got the Paypal payment, and I've fulfilled my half of the bargain. If someone encloses a notice with the shipment saying that they'll leave feedback after I do, the seller just kissed off any chance of getting it from me. I'm thinking of even putting a notice in my replies to their initial contact that I don't leave it first.
I'm about to enter the selling side of this thing, and I'm going to leave feedback first.
posted on February 10, 2002 03:12:09 PM newMy opinion is that the seller cashed my money order or got the Paypal payment, and I've fulfilled my half of the bargain.
Since you are entering the selling field, let me give you a few hypotheticals:
1. You sell someone a widget, they pay, and you leave a positive. 2 months later, they leave a neg, saying they never received, even though you have proof they did. (this has happened to me)
2. You sell someone a widget, they pay, you leave a positive. They swap your item for an identical, broken item, and try to get a refund. You refuse, and they leave you a negative. (this has happened to me as well.)
3. You sell someone a widget, they pay, you leave a positive. They request a refund, you give it to them, and they leave you a negative anyway.
I used to leave feedback immediately after receiving payment. No more. Not only do I get more feedback by waiting, but I also am positive the customer is happy with the transaction when he or she leaves feedback for me. If a customer emails me requesting feedback, I give one reply that I will leave feedback when they do. If they email again, I ignore. The feedback isn't that important to me.
posted on February 10, 2002 03:30:44 PM new
There truly is a happy medium here.
Do not necessarily leave immediate feedback, yet do not withhold it as well.
Keep in touch with the buyers, ensure that they are happy with a followup email. Then leave the feedback.
There are times that some people will still abuse the system. But to flatout refuse to leave feedback until the buyer does is wrong.
If you get a negative or two in the course of this, oh well. Very rarely does a negative or two matter when I am buying. It is the constant, numerous negatives that steer me away.
If you get a negative two months later, explain it in the followup. Most people can read and see that that makes no sense.
If you get a negative from refusing to refund because of switched items, explain it in a follow-up; you would be doing all on eBay a favor.
If you get a negative after a refund, state your side and move on.
Be fair, be honest and tell your story.
But please spare me the I'm not gonna do it until you do it first garbage. That shows me that you do not trust what you do, what you sell, or how you sell it.
In the long run, legendary customer service wins out. You will lose a battle or two; a customer or two; along the way.
You might even get a negative that was undeserved. SO WHAT. Explain it. Move on. And continue cultivating your new and current customers. People CAN see the overall record and that is what really counts.
posted on February 10, 2002 04:03:40 PM new
Mjdarby,
You said " But please spare me the I'm not gonna do it until you do it first garbage. That shows me that you do not trust what you do, what you sell, or how you sell it."
I take great offense in that statement. There are many great reasons not to leave feedback first as a seller. As a seller, one of my prime concerns is to keep the bottom cost of my product as low as possible. This obviously benefits my bidders as well. If I have to write every bidder to find out if they received there merchandise and are happy with it.... my bottom costs rises. You don't see most mail-order catalogs do this, do you?
Secondly, feedback is an optional component of eBay. It is not necessary for a transaction. I am perfectly willing to reward my bidders who choose to participate in the feedback system with appropriate positive feedback. Those who choose not to participate, I feel I have no obligation toward.
Third, programs like Vrane allow you to respond to positive feedback that has been left in your account. I can leave hundreds of feedback in the amount of time it takes to leave one or two. Again, this helps to lower my total costs.
Four, After a seller has shipped an item, he looses all control over a transaction. The ONLY little bit of recourse he has for a transaction that goes sour is eBays flawed feedback system. I for one am not willing to throw that away.
Bottom line, is that I provide my bidders with excellent service. All items are shipped 1-2 days after payment is received, all e-mails are answered within 24 hours, items are packaged carefully and professionaly, and my prices are kept low and reasonable. I know EXACTLY how to package/ship my merchandise, I know EXACTLY what each item is, and I know EXACTLY how to sell my merchandise! For you to say that I do not know these things based on my choice of how to participate in eBays feedback system is an INSULT! I may be wrong, but I am guessing you do not have almost 6 years of eBay experience behind your belt. When you do.... then lets talk. I'm sure you will have reviewed and changed some of your current practices.
posted on February 10, 2002 06:52:14 PM new
Suffice it to that I'll match my customer service, feedback rating, and overall customer satisfaction up with anyone. I'll match my years of online selling up with most, and will be in the senior half, yet it is not quite up to your 6 years.
You can do whatever you like with the 'flawed eBay feedback system'. I leave the feedbacks as I see them. No reason to play the who is gonna leave it first game. If it bites me later on, I'll make a note and move on.
If we all know that it is flawed, do you have to really make it worse?
I also totally disagree with your assertion that the seller loses control of the auction as soon as he ships it. That is BS.
You can email the customer your shipping notices, send them the tracking numbers, follow-up with a note upon receipt.
This is generally called taking care of the customer. It costs next to nothing to keep a customer and a fortune to find one.
There is very little incremental costs associated with a well managed customer service program.
If you are getting negatives, there is usually a reason for it. Sometimes they are deserved. Sometimes they are not. Sometimes fear of the negative can cause it as well.
It is really sad that some people must change their business practices for fear that someone THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN TREATING nicely, thinks otherwise. If they were treated nicely, note it and move on. If you screwed up, you screwed up. You can move on as well.
As far as the mail order companies, the good ones do. You should take a lesson in that.
posted on February 10, 2002 08:28:14 PM new
>>>Since you are entering the selling field, let me give you a few hypotheticals:
1. You sell someone a widget, they pay, and you leave a positive. 2 months later, they leave a neg, saying they never received, even though you have proof they did. (this has happened to me)
Then I put it in my reply to their negative, and they look like the fool (all shipping will be PM with delivery confirmation). As a buyer, I don't mind seeing negatives in someone's feedback, and if possible, I DO search out the circumstances.
>>>2. You sell someone a widget, they pay, you leave a positive. They swap your item for an identical, broken item, and try to get a refund. You refuse, and they leave you a negative. (this has happened to me as well.)
Again, I reply to the negative that they refused insurance.
>>>3. You sell someone a widget, they pay, you leave a positive. They request a refund, you give it to them, and they leave you a negative anyway.
Refunds will not be an option. Items will be well described, and it's going to be enough of a hassle getting things out let alone back in and losing fees in the process.
>>>I used to leave feedback immediately after receiving payment. No more. Not only do I get more feedback by waiting, but I also am positive the customer is happy with the transaction when he or she leaves feedback for me.
I'm glad it works for you, but it hasn't been that way with me at all. I let someone know the item arrived, I tell them I've left feedback, and 30% of the time it's ignored. I've had it with that nonsense!
>>>If a customer emails me requesting feedback, I give one reply that I will leave feedback when they do. If they email again, I ignore. The feedback isn't that important to me.
It isn't going to me either because I already have a perfect record. I'd have to come up with 40 negs to remotely make a dent in my positives.
posted on February 10, 2002 08:44:41 PM new
When I buy, I have no problem with leaving the first feedback. Afterall, if I paid quickly, I have nothing to worry about, do I?
They might forget to leave a feedback, but that's not the same as getting a negative.
I can't wait to let them know how much I loved the item, fast shipping, etc. Why not give a seller a boost once in a while? Don't we rush to tell a seller when we aren't happy?
posted on February 10, 2002 09:05:42 PM new
I Never E-mail a customer when I ship!I ship same day,I like the surprize of them getting sometimes next day before they turn around.To many to let know "Hey I Sent your package,And remember to Hug your postman!"GzEhhhh!give me a break.I will however E-mail if I'm behind longer then normal.
