posted on March 10, 2001 08:03:57 PM
I have an 85 year old relative in North Carolina who has at times used the word 'nigger'. Never in a way to put down or degrade someone--but just in his everyday language. eg: I went to store and saw this nigger buy some milk.
I have absolutely no intention of changing the way this old man speaks--though my children have heard the word from him in this manner they get the lecture from me on why they are not allowed to use it also.
posted on March 10, 2001 08:55:54 PM
In the case of the poster enchanted mentioned, the one I defended -- that poster later said that the words hurt her, even though at the time they were posted she made a pretense of laughing it off.
I don't pounce on people for use of words, generally -- but in that instance the words were especially cruel. They were words of hate, not an innocent cultural acquisition like "powwow."
posted on March 10, 2001 09:10:31 PM
"innocent" cultural acquisition?
in whose judgement was it innocent?
the indigenous (sp?) tribes of the US and Mexico were subjected to countless acts of discrimination and cultural destruction. Not so innocent in my mind, and truthfully to me not funny at all. The terms "powwow" and 'squaw' remind of dialogue from an old B Western movie with plenty of stereotypes.
In fact powwows still exist today and are a gathering of various tribes, usually a big two or three day celebration.
Personally I didn't think you meant badly by using the term, Spaz, but you really can't know whether or not the other person was hurt or not unless you know them well enough to ask or find out. I choose to take it as an opportunity for discussion, but yeah it hurt some.
i dont' think it should be a matter of which poster is hurt more or less, either.
posted on March 10, 2001 11:40:06 PMIn fact powwows still exist today and are a gathering of various tribes, usually a big two or three day celebration.
Enchanted: You could not possibly know this, but to my mind the word 'powwow' brings up warm thoughts of many summer evenings listening to the stories of people wise beyond my years and understanding. Of course, at the time I was supposed to be in bed, fast asleep, not listening to the grown ups.
See, my background (maybe not what I was 'born of' but what I've lived) includes many cultures, Native American included.
My point?
Well, it is all about intent.
I give people the benifit of the doubt and assume that they have not meant to insult me or others with the words they use. Both here and in the real world.
Yes, there are words (some of them with more than four letters) that offend me greatly. Yes, there are times that I have *assumed* someone should 'know better'. Thing is, when I see 'powwow' I don't take it as anything negitive, although I can understand how others could.
It a lot of ways this form of communication is so much harder to use. There are times when I don't know what some of the people I've know longest online are thinking or meaning to say. Hell, same goes for 'real life'.
BTW, I'm not trying to pick on you here....just seemed like a really good example for my thoughts.
posted on March 11, 2001 04:18:54 AM
Wow I never heard powwow used in a negative way - just literal that it was a meeting - but usually not casual more OK-this is serious.
Some might feel the use of cavalier to be a slight in the manner spazmodeus used to suggest they are wanton. Sounds like something round heads would say.
posted on March 11, 2001 05:25:59 AM
Lotsafuzz, thanks for your comment. As I said this has been a great opportunity for discussion. As I noted above I didn't think Spaz used the word with negative "intent".
The problem I did have is with the title of this thread "PC problem powwow" connecting the use of the word directly with the concept of "politically correct problems". Yes it was a pun and could be viewed as both innocent and at the same time making fun of a desire of indigenous people to be treated with respect. I was concerned, no more than that, no less than that, that it might lead to more jokes utilizing words derived from a culture that was overrun and destroyed by Western Europeans. I just felt I ought to speak out when my concern was validated and a joke was made about "squaws and powwows" both.
I commented, and it was instantly dealt with and settled in a pleasant respectful manner between myself and xardon, whom I happen to like and respect very much. End of the issue in my mind. That's all, the rest is just informative discussion, BTW I think it's fantastic that we can have this kind of interesting discussion in such a civil and intelligent manner
Consider this example ... the original use of a word or borrowing of a word into English has no negative implications, nothing vaguely insulting. It's how the word ends up being used that can be a problem (this is pretty obvious I guess, no real wisdom here).
For example, a lot of us probably eat tacos and many even eat beans in the tacos or burritos. Great food which many people love. Nothing negative there. But I've been called "taco and beans" AT WORK, asked with a sneer if I eat tacos and beans every morning for breakfast (I had a Hispanic last name), and Mexican immigrants and Mexican-Americans are often called "beaners" as an insult, definitely not as a compliment.
Something as innocuous as a tasty snack food and vegetable became an insult through it's use (and intent, which you pointed out).
posted on March 11, 2001 08:06:29 AM"Anatomy Of A Misunderstanding, or A Good Example of PC in Motion"
In the "Black Widow Bride Kills, Eats Hubbies," Antiquary lamented the way the "Free Nessie" thread died down so soon, and said he had been hoping sgtmike would launch an investigation to find Nessie and determine her physical and emotional well-being.
In response, I suggested that perhaps sgtmike was " in a powwow with Scotland Yard and Interpol, assessing the situation to determine whether Nessie's monster credentials are real."
The conversation then strayed into a misunderstanding where I took someone's joke as serious because I felt everyone here had become so hypersensitive about PC. I said as much.
Antiquary replied, "Spaz, I agree with the PC problem. Maybe we should have a powwow to discuss it."
It seemed to me that Antiquary was simply picking up on a word I had used in an earlier post. Malice, slander, and racial/cultural pejoratives had nothing to do with it.
In creating this thread, jamesoblivion merely picked up on Antiquary's suggestion. There is no nefarious double-meaning to the thread title. I am also sure that no pun was intended. It was nothing more than James carrying forward a conversation already in progress. He deserves no criticism.
Yet enchanted has now attempted to color "powwow" with racial bias -- the exact problem we've been discussing with regard to political correctness.
She writes:
The problem I did have is with the title of this thread "PC problem powwow" connecting the use of the word directly with the concept of "politically correct problems".
When I wrote "powwow" originally, I used it as one of several word choices available to me: huddle, meeting, conference, council, brainstorming, banging heads together, etc. I just happen to like powwow better than any of those.
When I "scolded" James for using "powwow" in the thread title, I was being extremely sarcastic, because it would be just like some PC maven (oops, there I go again) to come along and construe the purely innocent use of a word as disrespectful.
I refuse to strip my vocabulary of texture and color simply because there are people out there just waiting for the chance to cry "victim." There's a big difference between racial epithets and cultural words that have gradually trickled down into our language. PCism attempts to make them equal. I reject that.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:19:08 AM
I accept your rejection of my ideas and feelings and wish you a very pleasant day Spaz.
It was just a matter of differing interpretation of various posts by various posters, and quite frankly, differing interpretation of posts occur all the time around here. I call it discussion. Sorry it bothered you and for that I apologize. I have my little windmills I might choose to tilt at on the Internet, to borrow a metaphor from someone else, but it wasn't personal to you or anyone else. Just a civil discussion, at least I thought.
so, in your opinion, was my being called "taco and beans" at work ok? just wondering about that.
BTW, I take being called a "maven" at anything a compliment.
I can see my attempts at explaining my feelings weren't accepted as pertaining only to MY feeling and thoughts. I make no judgement on YOUR feelings and thoughts Spaz, and consequently will go back to lurking if it will make YOU or anyone else more comfortable.
IMHO we've just about beaten this topic into the ground about as far as it can go, but perhaps I'm wrong about that as well.
I do apologize if any of my thoughts, feelings and opinions have offended any reader whatsoever. Not MY intent.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:46:00 AM
No, of course it wasn't right that someone should call you "taco and beans" at work. How can you even seriously ask whether I would approve of such a thing? Give me some credit.
As for you "going back to lurking," that's just a bit of an overreaction, don't you think? We're having a discussion here, a debate. The whole thing hinges on people participating. If you have an opinion, be strong. Stand by it. Be ready to defend it. If everybody took their ball and bat and went home each time there was a disagreement, this place would implode.
posted on March 11, 2001 08:55:09 AM
I do stand by my opinions, Spaz, whether I lurk and read or post. I don't give up that easy. Give me some credit too.
Actually as others have noted you're a person who is remarkable for lack of prejudice. IMHO I agree with that and respect that.
Actually just didn't want to give the impression that I like to argue about it. Discuss yes, however, argue and upset others, I like to think it's not my style although I'm often known to be wrong.
I don't have a bat and ball, but my husband has a baseball bat by the bed in case of intruders or robbers entering our home at night. Does that count? LOL!
posted on March 11, 2001 09:22:19 AM
Am I understanding this right?
That the term pow-wow is considered by some to be politically incorrect?
From my dictionary The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:
pow-wow...1. Among some North American Indians, a medicine man. 2. A North American Indian ceremony in which incantations and dancing are used to invoke divine aid in hunting, in battle, or against disease. 3. A conference or meeting with or of North American Indians. 4. Informal. Any conference or gathering.
BTW, this dictionary is from 1980, obviously a politically incorrect version, as it refers to Native Americans as American Indians.
How will the editorial staffs of dictionaries keep up with all of this political correctness?
posted on March 11, 2001 10:17:56 AM
Feeling that you are right to feel a certain way and someone else is wrong to feel a different way doesn't justify ridicule/sarcasm of the other person's feelings.
A position can maintained without showing insensitivity and complete disregard towards another person's feelings. All it takes is a little thought in the wording of a post.
posted on March 11, 2001 10:26:37 AM
Thank you Irene! truly my heartfelt thanks.
Dictionary definitions can never give a clue about context of the words or contemporaneous discussion. "Taco and beans" are just two words in the dictionary too, they're foods. Thus my point about context being just as important as the words.
posted on March 11, 2001 11:06:07 AM
I see no one here ridiculing or being sarcastic about anyone's feelings.
Speaking only for myself...I do think this current "acceptable term of the moment" trend is ridiculous. Unless it's an obvious pejorative, like the "N" word...insult is in the context, as enchanted so rightly says.
posted on March 11, 2001 11:06:44 AM
Jamesoblivion: YES.
I think you all might want to stop and do a foot check.
femme, am amplification from dictionary.com:
Word History: Because trances were so important to the Native American shaman as a means of getting in touch with spiritual forces beyond the ken of the normal person, the title powwaw, literally meaning “one who has visions,” was accorded him. One of the occurrences of this word in an early piece of propaganda designed to bring more settlers to New England represents fairly well the Puritan attitudes to the religion of the native inhabitants of the New World: “The office and dutie of the Powah is to be exercised principally in calling upon the Devil; and curing diseases of the sicke or wounded.” The word whose spelling was eventually settled in English as powwow was also used as the name for ceremonies and councils, probably because of the important role played by the shaman in both. After the native peoples had been dealt with and the fear of devil worship was somewhat diminished, the newcomers decided that they could have powwows too, the first reference to one of these being recorded in the Salem, Massachusetts, Gazette of 1812: “The Warriors of the Democratic Tribe will hold a powwow at Agawam on Tuesday next.” The verb powwow, “to confer,” was recorded even earlier, in 1780.
-----------------------------------------
Intent is everything, and the use of the word here has been, so far as this auslander can see, entirely without malice. Ironically, the infamous "N" word, indisputably wrong, which is used at the top of this page, goes uncommented.
posted on March 11, 2001 11:20:24 AM
I am thinking about a poster who was a tough cookie. She could dish
it out but not take it. On a number of occasions, she lashed out
at me for trivial remarks.
For example, I said that the ability of some artists was enhanced by
the use of booze.
In another case, I said that "struggling" artists were motivated to
produce a lot of art.
Silly remarks such as these were attacked in a manner not in keeping
with the import of the message.
And I watched other posters attacked for similar innocuous remarks.
If the entire thread, in which this poster was attacked could be read,
you could see that she began the battle. But most of this thread was
deleted.
posted on March 11, 2001 11:29:00 AM
thank you for your comments pareau.
I believe Zazzie herself commented.."they get the lecture from me on why they are not allowed to use it also." which was so succinct and to the point I felt inadequate to offer anything additional.
Context, context, context it's so very important. I appear to be discussing terms in general and context in general, not the use in specific here, which Pareau rightly points out there was no malice. However, I appear to be taking a slightly more general view of what we're discussing than others, having springboarded from the original discussion to another one entirely about linguistic options and the different views of words in context, a purely theoretical discussion. So perhaps I'm just discussing theoretical matters with myself rather than with others.
In which case I bow to the clearly superior knowledge of others regarding this particular thread and this sticky wicket of words in which we find ourselves. All attempts to explain my concepts seems to have met with dismal failure and surely I can find better use for my struggling theories than to impose them here.
posted on March 11, 2001 11:33:07 AM
I do hope that my questioning of the term pow-wow as being a politically incorrect term is not being interpreted as being insensitive to another's feelings.
I'm just trying to understand what makes this term politically incorrect for some. It's the first I've heard that pow-wow can be used in a negative context.
Remember, while I go to great lengths to keep myself informed, I was born, raised and still live in Pennsylvania with German ancestry.
Enlighten me.
------
Stockticker, was your post ...justify ridicule/sarcasm of the other person's feelings specifically for me? I interpreted it as such, rather than just a general statement.
Ain't it the truth? Sometimes, posting here is just too much like work... OTOH...I haven't found a place I like better. I take comfort in the fact that none of this has any more importance than I'm willing to give it...
edited for typo
[ edited by toke on Mar 11, 2001 11:40 AM ]
posted on March 11, 2001 11:45:36 AMIf the entire thread, in which this poster was attacked could be read, you could see that she began the battle. But most of this thread was deleted.
There is nothing whatsoever "theoretical" about this statement:
I choose to take it as an opportunity for discussion, but yeah it hurt some.
My brain hurts when I read stuff like that, and AFAIC, my brain pain trumps the referred pain of another poster suffering the possibility of sideswipe slur at a relative whose ethnic background was probably news to everyone here.
What's this all about, anyway? FEEL MY PAIN, PEEPS, OR I'LL MAKE IT YOURS?
- Pareau
posted on March 11, 2001 11:48:07 AM
you're so right
edited before I get misunderstood: you're right in general not about inflicting pain. Not my desire to inflict pain and I apologize if I have inadvertently done so. Mea culpa, mea culpa.
posted on March 11, 2001 01:50:44 PM
The originatal usage of the word, "powwow" by spazmodeus was within a conjecture designed to poke fun of sgtmike, and to ridicule him.
The word was obviously chosen to amplify the mirth that he hoped to generate and in that context such usage demeans the cultural origins of the word.
