posted on March 5, 2001 04:26:35 PM
Innocent of PayPal's tactics, I paid a seller for an auction on eBay. According to PayPal, I used the "Instant Purchase" option (which is the default setting). PayPal then charged my credit card AND my checking account for the same transaction, resulting in multiple debits. I have spoken with my bank, and they can't stop
any of the *incoming* charges/debits because they originate electronically
through the Federal Reserve.
PayPal refuses to cancel any of the transactions (how many times do they
need to get their money?) until they get the hard money in their little hands, then it is their "policy" to wait until 3-4 days before they issue a release of funds on my *other* accounts! They say they have to wait for the
"paperwork" to catch up to the electronic transfers! Basically, all my
money is sitting in electronic hell and no one "has" it.
Consider how much money they get to use that belongs to other people if they
double-bill everything for 3-4 days! I can understand freezing the amount of the payment in the checking account OR the credit card. But, to freeze the money in MORE THAN ONE ACCOUNT? (I'm talking about my bank accounts, not Paypal accounts here!)That's ludicrous and outrageous. What bank charges your checking account AND your credit card when you buy something at WalMart? This Paypal sets its own rules. And, pal, if you deal with them you are risking whatever money they have access to!
Of further interest is the fact that the phone number to PayPal's
"executive" offices from their domain registration information in Champaign, Illinois, has been disconnected. I talked with PayPal's "customer
care" only by finding someone else on the internet who had the phone number.
PayPal no longer lists any phone numbers on any website, domain
registration, etc. There is also no physical location/phone numbers listed
in any telephone book across the USA, none of the "executives" are listed in
any phone book, and the company is not members of any local Chamber of
Commerce or Better Business Bureau. Starting to sound pretty shady, huh? There is
also no email address listed anywhere! To send them an email, you have to
use a "form" on their website which they seem to ignore.
According to
PayPal, this is their usual way of doing things to insure that they get
their money. If one account doesn't pay them, then they will get it from
another, and on down the line. In the meantime, they freeze those funds on ALL ACCOUNTS that they have access to! It doesn't seem to concern them that their
customer's funds are tied up until they decide to bless the buyer with their
approval and release the other funds. Nice racket they've got.
My bank tells me that this is how they've done *every* transaction I've ever
made with them. But the amounts were all much smaller, so I didn't notice
when suddenly there was a hold on my accounts for $5.00 for a CD! Well, I
noticed the transaction this week which has frozen my checking account for over $300 for a purchase half that amount!
What did PayPal say? "Well, I guess you learned the hard way. Next time read all the information at the website!" Well, I checked the "information" at the website. No where does it tell a buyer that using "Instant Purchase" will automatically freeze all their legitimate banking accounts until PayPal decides that they have their money and then they'll release whatever is left. They say they never charge your accounts without permission! Well, better read all the fine print and give yourself a lot of creative interpretation of their TOS, then you might figure out that they can and DO do this!
PayPal is poison. Close your accounts with them ASAP! As soon as the seller gets his money for a legitimate payment, I will cancelled my credit cards and checking accounts and start with accounts that PayPal will *never* learn about!
It does sound like you used instant ach. This would initiate a bank transfer based off of the payment options the user chose on the web site (credit card, bank account).
In order to allow the funds to be immediately available, an equivalent hold is placed against the credit card on the account (in the event of an ach failure when coming from the issuing bank). The card is only charged if the item fails when coming from the bank.
Users that register their debit card as their credit card can run into issues if they use this payment method because:
1. It starts an add funds request from your bank to your PayPal account.
2. It will place a hold against the debit card for that amount because we are making the funds available immediately (instead of waiting 3-5 business days for it to clear in).
I am sorry for the issues you have had, but we have no power to lock up your bank account and the problem you have is based off of the payment option chosen.
This can be a tad bit confusing, but I would be willing to come back and explain in further detail if needed.
posted on March 5, 2001 05:18:19 PM
Yeah, I heard all about that from PayPal today. But here's the problem with your reasoning, and PayPal's actions:
1. PayPal receives "authorization" from the issuing bank for any credit card, debit card, or checking account at the exact time of the PayPal transaction. This occurs whether the transaction is a "soft post" or a "hard post." If the funds were not available, you would not receive approval (or authorization). Ever had a credit card refuse authorization because you were over your limit? It's the same thing! You would not GET authorization unless the funds were there, or the bank gave its approval to charge the account.
Once the issuing bank grants the authorization, the monies are put on "hold" or "set aside" until the actual transaction is completed! Until it is *completed* In effect, when PayPal bills more than one account, just in case, the funds are not available to the customer, and if PayPal does not CANCEL one of the transactions, then the customer will get final billing (or debit) TWICE.
In the case of a credit card, the credit card is debited immediately. This further guarantees that the monies are there for PayPal. The owner of the account cannot cancel the transaction, once initiated by the PayPal computer terminal, nor can the owner of the account spend or transfer those funds because they have been removed from the owner's account or credit limit or available funds.
2. No credit agency, credit card, or any other reputable company *ever* charges any person twice "just in case."
PayPal double bills people. There is no need to do this to insure payment. There is no need to do this "just in case." To make yourself sound like the victim here "Hey, we just wanna get our money" is incredibly misleading. It goes to show PayPal's hope that their customers are ignorant of how electronic banking works! For example: if I had it in my power to cancel the transaction myself, release the holds on any of my accounts, or spend or transfer the money, I would. But, not even my bank can do that! Only PayPal could do any of these things. And PayPal "freezes" multiple accounts "just in case" when that paranoid doomsday e-fund transfer can only be changed by PayPal, not the issuing bank or the customer.
1. PayPal receives "authorization" from the issuing bank for any credit card, debit card, or checking account at the exact time of the PayPal transaction. This occurs whether the transaction is a "soft post" or a "hard post." If the funds were not available, you would not receive approval (or authorization). Ever had a credit card refuse authorization because you were over your limit? It's the same thing! You would not GET authorization unless the funds were there, or the bank gave its approval to charge the account.
(Ach transfers take 3-5 business days to clear in to the system because the issuing bank can still reject it several days after the fact---the timeframe quoted is for the funds to be verifiably good. Ach is a slower clearing process than a wire transfer)
Once the issuing bank grants the authorization, the monies are put on "hold" or "set aside" until the actual transaction is completed! Until it is *completed* In effect, when PayPal bills more than one account, just in case, the funds are not available to the customer, and if PayPal does not CANCEL one of the transactions, then the customer will get final billing (or debit) TWICE.
(The hold against the credit card automatically settles within 7-30 days, provided the ach clears, and this timeframe depends on the issuing bank. If the ACH clears, the customer's hold will be taken off. If it does not clear, and we have given the user the money to use upfront, then, and only then, is the card moved from a hold to a charge.)
In the case of a credit card, the credit card is debited immediately. This further guarantees that the monies are there for PayPal. The owner of the account cannot cancel the transaction, once initiated by the PayPal computer terminal, nor can the owner of the account spend or transfer those funds because they have been removed from the owner's account or credit limit or available funds.
(I would recommend that users that want to pay with a bank account use echeck)
2. No credit agency, credit card, or any other reputable company *ever* charges any person twice "just in case."
PayPal double bills people. There is no need to do this to insure payment. There is no need to do this "just in case." To make yourself sound like the victim here "Hey, we just wanna get our money" is incredibly misleading. It goes to show PayPal's hope that their customers are ignorant of how electronic banking works! For example: if I had it in my power to cancel the transaction myself, release the holds on any of my accounts, or spend or transfer the money, I would. But, not even my bank can do that! Only PayPal could do any of these things. And PayPal "freezes" multiple accounts "just in case" when that paranoid doomsday e-fund transfer can only be changed by PayPal, not the issuing bank or the customer.
(The reason for the hold was explained above. The money is being made available immediately instead of the user having to wait 3-5 days for it to clear in on an ach transaction. If the user can wait, the other option is echeck)
posted on March 25, 2001 02:17:24 PM
Its so nice that all you Paypal drones tell us about your wonderful policies. The bottom line is that buyers should remain extremely cautious of Paypal and their schemes. They are extremely unfriendly towards sellers and buyers and show little to no concern over solving problems. Buyers should be aware that if a seller commits fraud and does not bother to send you an item, you will be helpless and at the mercy of Paypal. I can tell you from personal experience that they will just ignore you until you go away angry. I'm still awaiting a refund from September 2000. I had to send them copies of my drivers license, utility bills, and countless forms, which they threatened had to be submitted in 5 days or else (or else what, I don't know). I rush around to send in these documents and months later, I haven't even so much as received a e-mail. When I called, I was told that they would re-open my case. Why was it ever closed before resolution? (Could it be because they don't care!!!!) The only way to protect yourself is to use your credit card to make the purchase. At least you can submit a claim to your credit card company, which will treat you with dignity and respect hopefully! But before you rush off and charge away on Paypal, realize that Paypal takes an extremely negative stance on credit card payments, as apparent by their policies. There policy is as stated here "Personal Accounts are limited to receiving $100 per month of credit card payments. Payments funded from the sender's checking account or existing PayPal account balance will not count against the recipient's limit. Payments funded wholly or partially by a credit card are classified as credit card payments in the PayPal system." This policy has just recently caused a problem between me and a buyer on Ebay. I attempted to pay my seller using Paypal, which they advertise as a form of payment, and they tell me that it must be from my checking account only. Since when does a seller have the right to tell me what account I must use in order to pay Paypal? Of what business is it of any customer how I send money to Paypal? Why does Paypal involve sellers in this matter? Just what is Paypal doing for me if they can't even keep an exchange or money private. Now Paypal has turned the sellers into mindless drones. If you haven't opened an account with Paypal, I suggest you think twice! If you have an account already, I suggest you think twice!
posted on March 28, 2001 09:13:22 PM
You should all beware of this company. Currently they are holding money that was sent to me. I have no choice in this matter. I did not ask for money to be sent to me through this company. I DO NOT ACCEPT PAYPAL!
They will not send me MY money unless, I give them #1 my credit card
#2 my bank account
or
#3 send them personal information regarding my utility bills.
WHAT GIVES THEM THE RIGHT TO DEMAND THIS STUFF IN ORDER TO SEND MY MONEY???
When you try to communicate this to them, they ignore the issue you are presenting like you are stupid.
The response email I received said that if I closed my account, any money left in the account would be sent to the registered address.
It takes a really STUPID person to send an email like that when you have told them you do not and will not have an account with them.
BTW, all of you sellers better reread the terms of use. I understand that Paypal has again made some changes to their terms without annuoncing it to their members. This is not to say they are doing anything wrong in that. You agreed to be bound by any rule they make when you signed up with the understanding that they don't have to annuonce any changes.
WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE GIVE A COMPANY THEIR CREDIT CARD AND BANK ACCESS WITH RULES LIKE THAT?
posted on March 29, 2001 10:22:43 AM
WOW AND I THOUGHT I HAD PROBLEMS WITH THEM MAKES ME WONDER. WAIT TILL THEY START TELLING PEOPLE THAT IF THEY SIDE WITH YOU THAT THEY WILL LOSE THEIR CREDIBILITY.THEY HAVE REWRITTEN THE BOOK ON ACCOUNTING AND THEN EXPECT YOU TO DO THEIR WORK FOR THEM.I ASK YOU, DO OTHER COMPANIES EMPLOY A PERSON STRICT TO ANSWER BAD PUBLICITY.DAMON, HOWEVER DOES HAVE A FULL TIME JOB AS FAR AS I SEE.
No money has been accepted for you if the payment has not been claimed by you in an account. The money is still the property of the sender and they would simply have to reverse the transaction.
The information requested, when accepting payment or signing up for an account, is for identification purposes.
posted on March 30, 2001 05:38:24 AM
Paypaldamon, That is a lie!. THey are want access to the bank account to freeze it if case of payment reversals. NOT IDENTIFICATION.
They tell you that without your specific authorization they cannot charge anything to your bank account. THAT is a lie, your bank will tell you, if you give them authoirization to make the deposits, they can freeze and remove money from the account. Paypal is based on lies.
I saw it posted above, Paypal sends you an email, the title says "YOU HAVE CASH" THAT is a lie. 'Cash' is green fibrous paper that the government has printed, what I have waiting at Paypal is a hassle by robots with canned email responses designed to keep you going in circles so long that you give up.
Even you just continually put the corporate "SPIN" on things.{"No money has been accepted for you"
Then why send me an email saying so? That is a doubletalk, and I am sure you know it.
Then when I send emails saying that I will not deal with PAYPAL, I still get the reminder emails. IT is on automation, like I don't exist for anything but what PAypal needs me for. PHOOEY! I will not accept paypal for anything I sell, and yes, in the past 8 months, I have had one customer say, "sorry, I cannot pay you then."
So I have to figure this guy was some kind of scam anyhow and would have caused me a problem with Paypal anyway. People, that is how you protect yourself with Paypal, don't accept it!
Edited to say my ID here is jimhhow, not jimhow! I did not put the second 'h' in by accident.
[ edited by jimhhow on Mar 30, 2001 05:42 AM ]
posted on March 30, 2001 12:26:38 PM
Letter I sent to MSN and BBB-and I'm just starting!!! (sorry about cross post)
Online auctions have become more convenient for both buyers and sellers since the inception of payment services like Paypal. Unfortunately, Paypal themselves have not only facilitated fraudulent sellers in perpetrating their scams, they have also cost their users through their own flawed business practices. Currently, I am out $45 in non-sufficient funds charges at my bank because of Paypal's inept procedure.
Upon the authorization to Paypal to debit funds from your checking account and send the funds to a fellow subscriber, Paypal immediately places a hold on these funds at the senders financial institution. The following day, Paypal removes the funds as a separate transaction. To the financial institution, this is a totally separate transaction. In effect, you must have double the funds that you are authorizing Paypal to deduct.
If you have $200 in your checking account and authorize Paypal to send another user $105 dollars, they will immediately place a hold on the funds. This leaves an available balance of $95. The following day, Paypal will initiate a new request to your financial institution to remove the funds from your account. Because this is apparently a new transaction, the funds they are attempting to remove are not the funds they placed the hold on the day before. Because you only have $95 available, the transaction is declined and you are charged your banks fee for the insufficient funds transaction. If you had $210 dollars in your account, the $105 would be removed from your account without incident, however the initial funds placed on hold would not be available for 72 hours. For some people, this can be a definite hardship.
After sending 3 messages via their feedback form and receiving nothing but automated replies, I contacted Paypal by telephone. They have a "secret" subscriber customer service number (402-935-7733) that does not appear anywhere on their site. In fact, they do not have any phone numbers listed on their site at all. Calling information for their state and the toll-free directory did not work as well. I happened upon their phone number in a newsgroup. I called and spoke with Sheryl regarding what I believe to be a serious problem. Sheryl listened patiently and indicated that she was aware of the way that Paypal processes their electronic transfers. She said that "while some people object to the way we do it, most people are fine with it." I emphasized that not only am I not fine with it, but it has cost me $45 in NSF fees. She said that she would forward my complaint to the appropriate department and they will respond to me by e-mail on whether or not they will reimburse me and "is there anything else I can do for you?".
Lets just say that I am not pleased and apparently Paypal doesn't seem to be too upset by this. They make it difficult for anyone to reach them except by their online feedback form, which they evidently don't respond to if its an issue they do not care to address.
posted on March 30, 2001 01:06:33 PM
Oh my now you've given out their secret phone number. To show you how inconsiderate Paypal is, I used the 1-888-221-1161 phone number in February when I was checking on my September protection claim. They told me that they had recieved all of my paperwork and would re-submit it to the protection claims department and they would send me an email within 5-7 business days letting me know of the outcome. When I called on March 26th (27 days later - no email recieved), they told me that I was not allowed to use the 1-800 number, because I was not a preferred member, and that I would have to call 402-935-7733 (conveniently a toll call!) I called the toll number and waited several minutes on hold and they told me that they would have to re-submit my claim again and I will be contacted by phone in 5-7 business days as to the outcome. Ya, I'll sit by my phone and wait! My next step if I don't hear from them in two weeks, will be to fill out an online compaint form from the FTC at www.ftc.gov or call toll-free 1-877-ftc-help. I would suggest everyone follow my example!
posted on April 3, 2001 10:02:39 AM
PayPal double-dipped into my account, causing a $20 nsf fee because they first reserved funds by ach transfer, then tried to charge my Visa debit card as a so-called 'backup' source. My Visa debit card and my checking account are the same account, and I did not have double the purchase price in my account.
They failed to acknowledge the flaw in their business logic, and refused to refund the $20 service charge. They tried to blame it on me.
I am very angry! My bank says they have never seen this kind of double submission by a merchant or service. I have used my Visa debit card to make on-line purchases for over a year with no problems until this PayPal transaction.
Please submit your similar experiences to this thread. If the number of complaints warrant, I will help orchistrate a rebuttal to PayPal's stone wall they can't ignore.
Thanks to those who have already written and have helped verify my complaints. [email protected]
posted on April 3, 2001 10:16:24 PM
Hmmmmmm... this is odd... I just signed up for paypal to pay for a couple auctions. I did get verified (they deposit money, etc.), and after getting verified, I sent a payment to someone. We check our transactions daily, and the charge was listed ONLY ONCE! For my credit card, I used the mastercard side of my debit card, and sill it only charged once! I don't exactly know where you get all that double-charging crap, but it seems to not happen with me!
I think the verification process does make sense because if you have a credit card and no bank account, then you might as well be some sicko freak that just wants to cheat people with a phoney credit card. I think paypal's cool! I haven't yet requested or recieved money yet, but I'm sure that's pretty easy, too. If PayPal decides to screw me like that after all, I'll yank their asses to the authorities so fast it'll make their heads spin!!!
[ edited by lotsodload on Apr 3, 2001 10:17 PM ]
posted on April 4, 2001 07:04:39 AM
PayPal refused to refund my nsf fee of $20. Here is there canned response to my complaints, the same one I get every time:
PayPal Customer Service wrote:
>
> Dear Thomas,
>
> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>
> I apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused. Please note that
> when you choose "Instant Transfer" to send money, PayPal initiates an
> electronic transfer from your bank account. Additionally, we place a
> temporary hold on your primary credit card in the same amount to be drawn
> from your bank account. The hold on your credit card guarantees the funds
> in your bank account.
>
> The length of time that the hold will remain on your card depends on your
> credit card company. The maximum hold time is 7 days for Visa cards and 30
> days for MasterCards.
>
> If you have registered a debit card as your primary charge card, it may
> appear that you are being charged twice for each Instant Transfer
> transaction. In actuality, this is the "authorization hold" which is
> lifted in several days.
>
> Unfortunately as per PayPal policy we cannot refund your $20 service
> charge.
>
> If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
>
> Sincerely,
> Harry
> PayPal Customer Service
It's the 'Additionally' part of their business practice that has caused my (and others) account to be overdrawn. They say that by using a debit card, it may 'appear' they are double charging. Hello PayPal... My nsf charge is very REAL!!! I know you are only trying to get the money once, it's the part where you reserve the funds twice that bewilders me. I was lucky. I did not have other checks and payments pending on my account that would have bounced because of the $20 charge placed on my account. I am sure there are others who were not so lucky. I view this as fraudulent fiscal damage, and will pursue the matter as such
What they have done may not be illegal. PayPay may not be liable for this practice because they have fine print in their long winded page of policies explaining exactly what they are doing. But it is still a stupid thing to do. No other merchant I have ever dealt with has used this practice of double reserving funds for themselves.
They are willing to cause nsf charges in the accounts innocent buyers in an effort to maximize their cash collecting effort. This blows me away!
My smart friends say I was stupid to give automatic access to my bank funds to anybody, and now I agree. But my ignorance does not justify a company the size of PayPal taking sleazy advantage of consumers who don't know any better.
I am on a mission to collect my nsf charges from PayPal, but I can't do it by myself. PayPal will just ignore me. I'll do the research and writing needed to back up our claims, but I need to have a list of complaintants with the financial damages caused them by PayPal. Please post here or email me if you suffered this double-intrusion into your bank account.
posted on May 3, 2001 03:29:21 PM
Hey, all these folks are just lying right? No big multimillion dollar company would treat customers like this.......Where there's smoke there's fire......
