posted on April 9, 2001 01:28:28 AM new
March 25, 2001
Mr. Hoffman,
FRUSTRATION turns to LAUGHTER and LAUGHTER turns to ANGER. Here's how.
FRUSTRATION is that for the last 3 months I have tried to amicably settle problems with your company(PAYPAL). I have been shuffled around from one person to another and none of them seemed to know what they were doing or plain didn't care. All they could do was quote from a canned speech. When I sort to resolve this problem your customer support put me on hold and shifted me to someone that was going to get something done, and it didn't. Still when asked to pull back and refrain from telling my story I did. I was told a resolution was in sight. Hours of phone conversations and nothing but frustration, frustration and more frustration.
LAUGHTER comes when you receive a proposal that tells what the company wants and in return leads me to believe that they(PAYPAL) are willing to put $16,500.00 back in my account along with strings attached to it. Heck, I'm only out approximately $80,000.00, but it gets better. Then I have to payout $12,000.00 of monies that your company stole from other people to adjust a negative balance that you caused in my account(balance now $4500.00). I'm ALSO expected to cover all other monies that people put in my account that I didn't receive. WOW!!! now that's bookkeeping at it's best.
ANGER comes when you spend countless hours researching accounts and the ones you track down, with limited resources, turn out not to be FRAUDULENT as your company claims. Repeated requests for a complete up to date history of my account have gone unanswered. Out of 81 transactions I am able to prove that at least 30 where legitimate. Your company "PAYPAL" is unable to prove to me that the others are fraudulent, I'm just supposed to take YOUR word for it. I guess I'm supposed to also take the fact that when a person sends me $1243.00 and you take approximately $25.00 (2%) that when you refund the person their money you deduct $1243.00 from my account and collect another 2%. MORE CREATIVE BOOKKEEPING. Oh, just a mistake---- 81 TIMES WOW!!!!!!!!!
After 3 months of unnecessary frustration and extreme stress, I have come to the realization that PAYPAL is only out for PAYPAL and is in dire need of drastic changes. Now the problem comes down to whether PAYPAL is willing to account for their mistakes and make me an offer which I consider to be reasonable or do I have to take appropriate steps to have this problem solved.
STEP 1. The court of public opinion --Auction Watch, The Wall Street Journal, Business Week and many reporters anxious to publish my story, Internet news letters which will reach tens of thousands of PAYPAL customers and their friends.
STEP 2. My State Attorney Generals office, filing criminal charges against PAYPAL
STEP 3. Contacting my senators and representatives in Washington seeking government regulations.
STEP 4. Civil action against PAYPAL
Mr.Hoffman, my patience has run thin at this time.The only resolution I can see is hearing from someone that is capable of making a decision and making it now.
posted on April 9, 2001 03:29:10 AM new
All someone at paypal has to do if they want money is to claim "fraud" on one of its customers and seize their money as its own and they never have to prove a thing.
posted on April 9, 2001 09:20:51 AM new
Rather like Yahoo's PayDirect service... if a customer begins a chargeback, Yahoo AUTOMATICALLY reverses the payment... they don't even ask for the seller's side of the issue.
There is a charge back process explained in the terms of use and sellers are given the opportunity to eliminate their liability through the Seller Protection Program. Charge backs are a fact of life accepting credit card payments, but there are ways to be protected from them.
posted on April 19, 2001 11:12:01 AM new
Come on people it's time to smarten up close your paypal accounts and save yourselves money. why let paypal make money on you by holding your money and drawing interest on it. when a bank loans money they charge interest. when paypal holds your money they draw interest on it.don't let them make fools out of you CLOSE YOU ACCOUNTS TODAY.SEND ME A COPY OF YOUR EMAIL CLOSING YOUR ACCOUNT. BE THE MOUSE THAT ROARED NOT THE TWERP THAT LET THEM CHEAT YOU.
COPY TO [email protected]
posted on April 19, 2001 11:21:52 AM new
club1man is making a number of incorrect and possibly illegal assertions about PayPal on a number of public Internet forums. The simple truth of the matter is that club1man's e-gold business attracted a large number of credit card payments that were unauthorized or disputed, and "charged back." As is standard in the payments processing industry, and in accordance with our Terms of Use, PayPal paid these "chargebacks" and then sought to hold club1man liable for these repudiated payments, as we do for any seller who has not qualified for our generous Seller Protection Policy. club1man did not qualify for this protection due to the nature of his business, has refused to abide by our Terms of Use, and has refused to accept his financial and legal responsibilities to our company. As a result, we have ceased doing business with club1man and will pursue legal action to recover the funds he owes us. We believe he may now be seeking to further avoid the legal ramifications of his actions by spreading erroneous information about our company. This, too, will be the subject of any legal proceeding.
PayPal's 7 million members send over $8 million in nearly 200,000 separate payments through our network each day. Very few of these transactions ever result in a dispute. To help protect members against those that do, we provide a Seller Protection Policy, that holds sellers harmless against chargebacks if they take certain preventative measures. This has helped PayPal maintain one of the lowest fraud rates in the industry and to become the #1 online payment service. Thank you for your interest and support of PayPal."
posted on April 19, 2001 06:12:36 PM new
Well, if anything he is persistant.
The only thing that really bothers me about paypal.com is the fact that 90% there is not enough explanation and detail on WHY a account is restricted or locked.
We have a merchant account and while chargebacks are industry standard, the processing service MUST give us detailed information on the purchase, purchaser, amounts, etc. and why a chargeback might have occured. Also there usually a limit to the amount of chargebacks you are allowed before your account is closed, anywhere from 1.5% to 3% depending on your status.
However, paypal.com does not do so. Accounts are restricted with little or no details. Obviously if the account holder were more informed and given full details they could assist in any situation.
Numerous times on these boards have we heard about paypal.com locking accounts and holding that money with little details and NO E-MAIL responses. I have heard as much as $5,000 held over 6 months and no replies to the account holders e-mail. Seems to me this is just not right.
A merchant account cannot do that, and neither can a bank. Not without full details and explanation.
posted on April 19, 2001 06:17:00 PM new
Hi kerrigirl,
The terms of use do have the reasons why an account can be restricted in them.
Again, account restrictions are rare and cleared up quickly with the proper information submitted. I would also point to the fact that this is a forum where a user can state, basically, whatever they want and that there is no way for me to tell if they received the email, deleted the email, ignored the email, or other. Emails are sent to users at the time of restriction with instructions and why the account has been restricted.
posted on April 19, 2001 07:04:40 PM new
This is a long post but I encourage people to read it!
Let's look at those Terms of Service, shall we? Here are a few interesting ones first.
Article I, subsection 18.
Not a Bank. You acknowledge that (i) the Service is not a banking service (ii)Service accounts are not insured by any government agency of any nation, (iii) the Service is not subject to banking regulations and (iv) PayPal will invest in liquid assets and that interest earned on those assets will be the property of PayPal.
So basically this says that the money you have in your paypal.com account belongs to paypal.com and they ARE NOT subject to federal banking laws. Everyone should feel safe here.
Article I, subsection 25.
Choice of Law. This Agreement is governed by the laws of the state of California, U.S.A as such laws are applied to agreements entered into and to be performed entirely within California by California residents.
So this says that unless you live in California, you are out of luck even for minor protection.
Article II, subsection 2a.
PayPal reserves the right to hold funds beyond the normal distribution periods for transactions it deems suspicious to ensure integrity of the funds.
NOW, lets look at some REAL SCARY STUFF...
Article II, subsection 3. RESTRICTIONS.
Restrictions. PayPal, at its sole discretion, reserves the right to restrict an account for any one of the events listed below.
1.Reports of unauthorized or unusual credit card use associated with the account including, but not limited to, noticeby the card issuing bank
2.Reports of unauthorized or unusual checking account use associated with the account
3.Complaints received regarding non-shipment of merchandise, merchandise not as described, or problems with merchandise shipped
4.Initiation of a chargeback process through your issuing bank
5.Receipt of potentially fraudulent funds
6.Unconfirmed identity
7.Initiation of transactions considered to be cash advances or assisting in cash advances
8.Sending unsolicited, commercial email or posting referral links on websites where they are not permitted
9.Opening multiple Personal accounts
10.The account has been used in or
to facilitate fraudulent activity
11.Inability of United States Postal Service to deliver the street address confirmation letter to the address associated with the account
12.Reports of someone other than the intended recipient receiving the Street Confirmation letter in the mail
13.Name on the checking account associated with the PayPal account does not match the name on the PayPal account
14.Insufficient funds in the PayPal account to cover the return of an Electronic Funds Transfer for insufficient funds in the checking account, incorrect bank
routing number, or incorrect checking account number
15.Insufficient funds in the PayPal account to cover the return of a check sent in for deposit.
16.Use of an anonymizing proxy.
NOW... notice the first one, UNUSUAL activity. Talk about all inclusive. Of all of these the last, number 16.
16.Use of an anonymizing proxy.
So if you want to protect your RIGHT to privacy online, paypal can take your money ALL of it, without you having a word to say against it.
NOW THE SCARIEST OF THEM ALL! NOT FOR THE WEAK OF HEART!
Article II, subsection 4.
Termination. PayPal, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to terminate this Agreement, access to its website, or access to Service without notice for any reason and at any time.
So what this says is that Paypal.com on their own WHIM could close your account and take your money. Period. There is no clause here that states you will be refund any money in the account. NONE.
This is just a small part, if you REALLY READ the TOS as paypaldamon keeps quoting and popping out and have it broken down, you will see that you have no rights. The Seller Protection Program only protects you against chargebacks shipping to a CONFIRMED shipping address.
**********
However, in summary, paypal.com defines itself as a private company that can take your hard earned money for no reason and on a complete whim if they so choose. Regardless of what paypaldamon states, they can do so. You only have a right to arbitration under their own terms and ONLY under very limited circumstances.
I am not saying that paypal.com DOES take money without good reason. However, I think people should READ their TOS before agreeing to it, and might really reconsider using paypal.com services.
***********
Let's take a small, explainable scenario:
You sign up. You build up $25,000 in your paypal.com account through completely honest transactions. You are trying to earn that 4.2% interest that is not yours. You do not have a SINGLE chargeback or reversal.
You move. You forget to update your paypal.com info temporarily and in the meantime paypal.com sends out a street confirmation letter. It fails.
Your account is LOCKED, and you don't get your money back NOR the interest earned. Paypal could hold the money indefinitely.
Another scenario:
You sign up. You build up $10,000,000 in your account. No chargeback, no fraudulent activity, no nothing. Completely Honest Joe.
However, you use a anonymizer proxy cause you don't want all those pyschos out there knowing your IP address or the such. A lot of these services are there to PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN.
Paypal.com sees that your IP addresses are anonymized.
Your account is locked. Your money is theirs, and unless you sue under the State of California you have no chance of getting your money back. Even if you do sue, you agreed to their terms.
As with MOST Terms of Service agreements by different companies (including eBay) the terms are written FOR THE COMPANY and give the signer very little rights.
posted on April 19, 2001 09:46:55 PM new
YAWN....SAME OLE SAME OLE..Why in the world would someone deal with Paypal if they are handling thousands of dollars????...We would definitely be utilizing a local financial institution...!!!! Paypal for us is strictly to accomodate auction winners...not to accept large amounts of money...We never leave more than a few hundred in the account..and have never had any trouble!!!
I think this thread should be locked too...Perhaps clubman should spend the energy he spends on auction watch thread writing with his local attorney...or setting up financial services at a local bank???
posted on April 19, 2001 10:42:10 PM new
13.Name on the checking account associated with the PayPal account does not match the name on the PayPal account
Damn, their going to get me. I just opened a Business account and switched to it from my personal account the new account has my business name on it.
I will be the next one locked up. Don't think I wont sing when that happens.
posted on April 20, 2001 02:58:47 PM new
Missed my point entirely. The point is the amounts but the idea of the situation. Whether its a 100 bucks or 10 million, its the accounts HOLDERS money not paypal.com.
And why should this thread be locked? So what if its been discussed before? We are discussing it AGAIN! Don't like the discussion, then go read a different one.
posted on April 24, 2001 08:15:38 PM new
I am amazed at how people cannot be concerned that if you had a "balance" leftover from an account being locked, and everyone paid (ie the reason your account was locked in the first place) that you don't get YOUR money that is on account.
posted on May 1, 2001 08:10:37 AM new
As Paypaldamon will undoubtably aver, I have never been a Paypal cheerleader, but I have learned enough that the meager risks involved in using their services is offset by the ease for both my customers and myself in obtaining and using funds. I still believe that quite a lot of their policies and attitudes kinda suck...but them I feel that way about AW too and still play Devil's Advocate here as well.
Isn't the real issue here the initial "disputed charges/chargebacks" that supposedly started this whole ball rolling?
If they were initiated by people that club1man did business with, shouldn't some his vitriol and concern be directed toward them?
I understand his business is/was buying gold for people who could only afford to buy small amounts...was this done in such a way to encourage chargebacks (i.e., telemarketing, spam, etc.) from people who realized all of a sudden they made a mistake? I think the key to the situation is in understanding that, not berating a payment service.
One thing though...if I had $80,000 in an account, I would make damn sure it's in a Federally-insured banking institution, not an online company. My Paypal account rarely gets above $100 lately (mainly because I've found the PP Debit Card to be a BIG convenience in buying backstock), but I'm oft-times a tad leery of keeping that much money in it. $80,000 would equal my home, car, and most of the stuff in it with a bit left over...I can't see leaving that kinda money with a private company when I know and I've read the rules on how that company operates.
----
TRC
[ edited by TheRedCircle on May 1, 2001 08:11 AM ]
posted on May 1, 2001 10:20:03 AM new
I can tell you fact mr paypaldamon. My acount with paypal [email protected] paid for hundreds of transactions over many months....99 percent cash transfers totalling thousands and thousands of dollars, NO CREDIT CARDS. Then one day last month pay pal SEIZED over $1300 dollars they had just withdrawn from our checking account, sent my payees cancelllation notices and will not return emails or phone calls about exactly what the hell is going on. Evasive, vague, and playing stupid seems to be the order of the day. All I get is a read the form letter and comply when I call. ALL YOU CROOKS want is my bank account statement and my drivers license number to verify who I am after months and hundreds of completed trasactions using the same account, in the same way, in simialr amounts. This is unacceptable and a horrible way to reward a long standing customer. You send me YOUR bank accoutn statement MR PAYPALDAMON. Thats not much to ask.....You can call clubmans statements about paypal possibly illegal. SEIZING assets of long term customers for vague bogus "suspicious activities" is what is illegal. I faxed information to them and have called them. I cant wait to join or instigate a big class action lawsuit that owns or destroys pay pal. They take an awfully cavalier approach to screwing with folks reputations. As you know, three NPBS on ebay gets you booted. PAY PAL has been holding money for weeks now that was intended and sent to pay EBAY sellers. Guess what happens now mr paypaldamon? Damage hads been done....know what that means? My lawyer does. Holding folks money and ruining their reputation on ebay is not quite the thing a long time, big no- troublemaker user should expect. Pay pal needs to die. I have gotten no response from them for weeks for any email I send them WHILE they continue to hold my money illegally while asking for information they have no business of asking for. It may seem a joke to you and them, but screwing with folks lives is SERIOUS business. Funny how these seizures always come with no warning AFTER paypal gets some money in the account that is NOT thiers. Its just as easy to freeze or warn BEFORE the money gets seized. Pay pal using extortionist tactics is NOT right. Im sorry. Long term customers deserve better. Remember, theres no charge backs even in this. ALL CASH on a customer you have made money of for hundreds of PAYS. No one there even WILL ANSWER ANY questions of why, and no one can put me through to the people that know. POOR. POOR. and criminal to. That just the facts. [email protected]
posted on May 2, 2001 10:01:22 AM new
Have read with much interest the complaints against PAYPAL. Why, in the stressful world
we live in today, would any of you submit yourself to this type of treatment? Wouldn't it be better to just accept checks or money orders? All buyers know that you don't send the merchandise for 10 day until their check clears and money orders speak for themselves.
Aren't you tired of everyone trying to rip you off? I live a peaceful life and it wouldn't be that way long if I was being ripped off like this. I think you should get together and definitely file a lawsuit and we all know you would be the winners. No court in the world would allow them to contine to do this to consumers.
posted on May 21, 2001 05:38:22 PM new
Just like to say that I came home from vacation today and paypal has reversed 3 more accounts dating Dec. and Jan. and they said they had reviewed all my transactions
WHEN WILL THEY TELL THE TRUTH.I stopped dealing with them in Feburary. Maybe by next Feb. they will have reversed all of them and all of my customers will have their money back. THANKS PAYPAL.
SINCERELY, STONEY
BY THE WAY IF YOU WANT TO REACH PAYPAL'S MAIN OFFICE BE AWARE THE PHONE # IS (650) 251-1100 ASK FOR Mr. Sandeep Lal his ext. is 1106 tell him Stoney said to call him.
posted on May 23, 2001 08:01:03 AM new
I have made it clear that I am no fan of Paypal. They need to re-think many of thier polocies, but...
It is not unthinkable that the woes effecting an industry like e-gold, specifically credit card fraud, would effect many if not most of it's marketers. I came across several stories of merchants going out of business due to the high incidence of chargebacks resulting from fraud and the inability to reverse e-gold transactions.
Paypal has been overzealous in thier attempts to limit thier own exposure to this type of fraud, freezing active accounts for one unsubstantiated fraud allegation. They have even frozen accounts for transactions just because they didn't pass their own "sniff test".
One question: Have any of the chargebacks resulted from a substantiated case of fraud? If so, how many?
contact: [email protected]
posted on May 23, 2001 11:09:49 PM new
Hello club1man,
Please refrain from making multiple postings of the same post as it is considered spamming of the Message Center which is a violation of our CG's. Therefore I have deleted your last post in this thread as well as subsequent postings in this same Forum.
