posted on September 7, 2000 05:49:58 AM new
I'm starting this thread because of some comments made in other threads.
How ALL KNOWING should an international seller be about custom's, brokerage fees & other postal problems in other countries?
Some seem to feel that if the seller ships the item for the price quoted, their responsibility ends there.
Others seem to feel that the seller should know everything there is to know about every country's GST, possible custom's add ons, brokerage add ons, etc. & include this in the shipping costs so the buyer knows UP FRONT exactly what they are going to end up paying for the item.
So what's everyone's opinion on this?
As an international seller, I try to know about the differences in prices & delivery rates on surface versus air mail. I also try to be aware of which countries have problems w/their postal service & I might need to register the package to insure it's safe delivery.
But, I'll admit, I don't use UPS or FedEx, so what I know about fees they may charge the buyer is only what I have gleaned from the many threads about it here.
ARE custom's fees, GST, brokerage fees the responsibility of the seller?
Are we asking something here of basically small business & mom & pop operations which I doubt even the biggest of the Fortune 100 companies probably don't know (or probably don't care) about?
posted on September 7, 2000 06:02:46 AM new
Of course the seller should learn as much about shipping to other countries as possible, especially Canada. But to expect the seller to know every little nuance isn't realistic or fair.
In the other thread that (I think) you are referring to, a seller was asked by a bidder to ship to Canada, which the seller doesn't normally do. The seller shipped by UPS, which then added on a rather large extra fee. Should the seller have known about this in advance? It all depends.
If the seller ships (or plans to ship) to Canada as a regular part of his business, then he very well should be expected to know this (by doing some research).
If the seller ships to Canada or any other country as a courtesy to a bidder on a one time basis, then the bidder should take the initiative and let the seller know the "ins-and-outs" of shipping to that country. This is just plain common sense.
posted on September 7, 2000 06:07:48 AM new
"Others seem to feel that the seller should know everything there is to know about every country's GST, possible custom's add ons, brokerage add ons, etc. & include this in the shipping costs so the buyer knows UP FRONT exactly what they are going to end up paying for the item."
NO!
A seller should research the possible implications of the delivery methods, offer the fast and the cheap methods, and fill out the customs forms ACCURATELY to minimize buyer hassle. But how the heck can I know what a customs official will decide to use as the basis for the duty? Or if the shipping company on the other end has a 3.872% surcharge for the use of their chairs while waiting for the packet?
I would hope the buyer has checked out what the regulations are for importing things to THEIR country and can live with the consequences if it's nabbed at the border, taxed, or has other consequences.
posted on September 7, 2000 06:22:51 AM new
I had an almost identical situation with a sale to Canada when I was a fairly new seller. The only difference in my sale was that the items (computer speakers) arrived back to me in one piece with no damage.
The buyer was from Canada, he requested UPS shipping, which turned out to be a typo on his part. He meant to type USPS.
Speakers are shipped UPS, of course with the added brokerage fee from UPS the charge to him is unacceptable. Buyer get really ticked off and sends nasty childish emails. After 3 attempts on UPS's part to deliver the package, it slowly makes it's way back to me in good old Ohio.
I refunded the buyers bid amount and half the shipping. In my case, the buyer had asked for UPS shipping. He was unaware of the additional charges, as was I as a newbie seller. Since a typo was the main culprit, I thought we both shared the "blame". He wasn't very happy, but left a whiney neutral, as did I for him since he was so nasty.
As far as where the responsibility lies, I believe if you are going to ship internationally, it is up to YOU, the seller to have the shipping information. From this information you set your TOS. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to know that buyers are not going to want to pay a "brokerage" fee on top of the taxes etc. that Canada levies. This is not the same issue as lying on customs forms at all, this has to do with UPS charges.
The sale in question should be resolved through an insurance claim since the item was damaged on the return trip. This seller should either learn about the details of international shipping, or they should only ship to the states. The buyer OTOH should be very clear when dealing with US sellers, since they may be uneducated concerning shipping. Buyer in this case is lucky they are only out $36.
posted on September 7, 2000 06:33:55 AM new
As a regular international bidder/buyer I expect to have to pay all the relevant dues in my country (Australia). For example any item with a value of less than AU$200 does not attract customs duty and GST does not apply to privately imported items.
However I would expect the seller to advise me of the total shipping cost, for example if UPS was used the seller should ask for all the charges that will apply and advise the bidder accordingly.
If the bidder is worried about shipping they should ask the seller for a quote before bidding.
Recently I saw a reel to reel tape deck on e bay that I have wanted for a very long time. Before placing a bid I contacted the seller who advised me that there would be a charge of US $250 to pack/crate the tape deck plus a shipping charge of approx US $150, making a total shipping of US $400.
posted on September 7, 2000 06:40:29 AM new
Guthrie -
"However I would expect the seller to advise me of the total shipping cost, for example if UPS was used the seller should ask for all the charges that will apply and advise the bidder accordingly. "
UPS DOES NOT TELL SHIPPERS THAT! If asked, most of the clerks do not know about the added "broker's fee", because it is collected by UPSCanada, from the recipient. And if they use the web-page calculator, it does NOT mention the fee either.
posted on September 7, 2000 06:53:12 AM new
eventer - a bunch of us Canadians were working on a list of tips for international deals. The last I heard of this, stockticker was going to try to get something posted that we could all refer to. It was a work in progress and included some really good advice learned through experience.
To all: I don't want to comment on who should know all the rules (buyer or seller) - that is an emotional argument that has no end. I may suggest, though, that the solution to most of these cross-border problems is simply communication. It is so easy, fast, and cheap to communicate via email these days, that there is no reason why anyone should get a 'surprise' when completing a deal.
International trading has made me many, many new friends all over the world (just mailed a bunch of tapes yesterday to a very nice gentleman in Norway). Learn about the possible pitfalls in doing this, work around them with your trading partner, and have a ball
posted on September 7, 2000 07:47:56 AM new
Abacaxi said:
"UPS DOES NOT TELL SHIPPERS THAT! If asked, most of the clerks do not know about the
added "broker's fee", because it is collected by UPSCanada, from the recipient. And if they use the web-page calculator, it does NOT mention the fee either."
What a buncha B.S.
UPS U.S.A. charges the same damn brokerage fees on items coming into the good ol U.S. of A. on items over $200 U.S. There was a time it used to be a much lower $ amount. Any clerk with a brain larger than a pin head knows this & if they don't then a quick call placed via their 1-800 # will confirm it for them/you.
edited to add: the $200 value was current as of last year, I closed my account due to their price gouging so don't know what it is today?
UPS might not advertise the fact that they charge "International Brokerage Fees" when they transport an item across an International Border, but it's not too hard to find if a seller decides to check, before they ship.
[ edited by reddeer on Sep 7, 2000 07:50 AM ]
posted on September 7, 2000 08:07:47 AM new
If a seller ships outside of their own country they should know what the shipping fees are or make an effort to quote accurately, but they can not know the customs tariffs, duties and taxes of the destination country. In this case, all shipping fees quoted should have been acurate, but seller has no responsibility to know what taxes apply, etc.
As for myself, I am already a business off the net and deal with international customers in any case. eBay just allows me to sell the fun stuff in between. But I do not take the responsibility of my eBay business with any less responsibility than with my big customers.
I make a point of researching as much as possible the potential shipping and financial issues relevant to the countries I sell to, which the net makes incredibly easy.
I look for alternative shipping methods that benefit the customer, make sure the goods are in fact legally allowed to enter the destination country (for instance computers, electronics and software is very difficult to send to the US), and whether the goods may be subject to tariffs and customs fees (although I cannot assess those particular fees with great accuracy).
I think serious international selling as a legit business and not as a casual seller, requires much effort and brings a special responsibilty to inform the customer as much as reasonably possible how the shipment is likely to go from past experience.
But as a buyer I would never enter a contract unaware of all the potential outcomes. If a seller states that they dont ship outside of the USA (and there is probably a good reason), I do not ask them to make an exception, even though they might. Reason, there is a good chance that if something goes wrong (and I am not talking about extra tax charges which are up to the customer to know), they will come back and say " I made an exception and went out of my way..." = I just dont care or the problem is way over my head.
And just to my fellow Canadians who like to buy out of the country...remember the GST (and that large stash of cash Mr.Martin is sitting on) when you vote! We have the kind of government we deserve.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:21:37 AM new
I heard one of the Bushs' (the one running for President of the World) say on NBC the other day that there is something like $4.3 TRILLION in the US reserve over and above what they are budgeting to spend on everything during the next 10 years.
Even Mr. Martin, with his clever Gouge and Screw Tax hasn't accumulated that much
posted on September 7, 2000 08:38:19 AM new
There will most likely always be problems about international sales. There are the buyers and sellers who will take the time to do the research and there will be the ones that do not. There seem to be a lot of buyers and sellers that are not even familiar with the ebay "site map" and many others that do not bother to read the auction terms. They will have the most problems no matter what they do.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:48:10 AM new
The issue in the other thread is that this is not a tax, but an internationl brokerage fee claimed by UPS. Of course a seller is not responsible for tariffs, customs, taxes or anything else that the buyer must incur due to having something shipped into the country. However, when the shipping method chosen by the seller incurs additional cost to the buyer, then, yes, the seller is responsible to mention it. It's not a matter of being ALL-KNOWING, but just having a little business sense and common courtesy.
posted on September 7, 2000 10:32:57 AM newThe issue in the other thread is that this is not a tax, but an internationl brokerage fee claimed by UPS. Of course a seller is not responsible for tariffs, customs, taxes or anything else that the buyer must incur due to having something shipped into the country. However, when the shipping method chosen by the seller incurs additional cost to the buyer, then, yes, the seller is responsible to mention it. It's not a matter of being ALL-KNOWING, but just having a little business sense and common courtesy.
No, common courtesy is letting the seller know up-front, when you ask him to do you a favor and make an exception to his TOS, that there is a pitfall in shipping via UPS to Canada. The bidder should have clued the seller in to the UPS addon charge.
The seller obviously stated in the auction that he doesn't ship internationally. Therefore, he probably didn't know about the added expense. Was it his responsibility to check for every possible occurance with various shipping methods to Canada? No. The only reason he shipped this item to the bidder at all was as a common courtesy. He could have easily said, "sorry, please don't bid".
The buyer, being Canadian, surely must have known about the extra charge and should have let the seller know. The buyer probably ASSUMED that the seller knew about the extra charge and ASSUMED that the seller would ship via USPS. The buyer ASSUMED incorrectly and is now trying to stiff the seller for the BUYER's error. This bidder deserves a neg.
posted on September 7, 2000 10:37:25 AM new
Obviously you haven't read the other thread, or you wouldn't making such rediculous assumptions.
The buyer clearly stated they have never dealt with UPS & had no idea they would have an outrageous UPS Fee when the item arrived in Canada.
posted on September 7, 2000 10:46:13 AM new
I recently had a bidder ask if I would ship outside the US. I didn't consider it a courtsey to say yes. It benefited me to ship to her...I got a great sale out of it. So how is it that the seller did the buyer a favor by agreeing to ship to Canada? They said yes, got paid and now want nothing else to do with the sale. Not good customer service to me.
I asked my bidder how they wanted me to ship to them. I can't see why the seller wouldn't ask. Seems to me that there is some mistakes on both ends...but I do not think the bidder deserves a neg.
posted on September 7, 2000 02:16:17 PM new
reddeer
The seller by the sounds of it does send items within the country via UPS,so they assumed the same rules would apply.
How are they supposed to know that UPS tacks on 30.00 in fact did you know that FEDEX does it too,even on items over 1500 years old.Age makes no diff,its a BROKERAGE FEE.
I can see it know seller decides to ship internationally has a brain wave,OH I better see if there are additional charges beyond what is quoted as shipping.
99% of population are not going to know that and just because you become a seller does not mean you atuomatically know all this stuff.
You name the country I have just about shipped it there,but I do not use UPS.
posted on September 7, 2000 03:54:05 PM new
abacaxi:
"UPS DOES NOT TELL SHIPPERS THAT! If asked, most of the clerks do not know about the added "broker's fee", because it is collected by UPSCanada, from the recipient. And if they use the web-page calculator, it does NOT mention the fee either."
Well then, that's a problem between the shipper and UPS then, isn't it? Why should the poor buyer be penalized because you can't find the correct answer?
posted on September 7, 2000 04:01:10 PM new
imabrit:
When you become a seller and accept an international order it becomes your JOB to know this. That is what a professional is. Ok, the seller made a mistake. It is their responsibility to clean up after that mistake.
posted on September 7, 2000 04:13:38 PM new
yankee98champs
You are way out in left field on this one,I buy items from Europe on a weekly basis from a good number of the major auctions houses.These folks use people to ship items that do nothing but ship worldwide and not even these new you could get hit with a brokerage fee.
Think about what you said its a problem between UPS and the seller,makes no sense.If I ask UPS how much to ship somewhere and they quote me a price.I then ask them are there going to be additional hidden fees and they tell me NO.
What then am I supposed to do,call them a liar and say I think you might be wrong.When the seller had no idea there was a brokerage fee.
It ticked me off a few weeks ago when I got hit with a 30.00 brokerage fee for some Roman Coins I had shipped from Europe.They where sent by courier and they got stuck in customs for a week because the broker had no idea what they where doing.I still had to pay the 30.00.
Was it the sellers fault NO as we have shipped this way before with no problems.
Sometimes I think we expect too much out of each other.We seem to be after perfection when no such thing exists in the real world.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:34:56 PM new
imabrit:
Think about what you said its a problem between UPS and the seller,makes no sense.If I ask UPS how much to ship somewhere and they quote me a price.I then ask them are there going to be additional hidden fees and they tell me NO.
Think about what YOU said. Why is the fact that UPS didn't give you the correct information the buyers problem? If UPS didn't give you the straight dope, then YOU need to call UPS on it. It's not the customers problem.
posted on September 7, 2000 05:38:17 PM new
True in reality its neither a buyer or seller problem its a UPS,FEDEX problem.
Really the complaint should be with them
not the buyer or the seller.
posted on September 7, 2000 08:53:42 PM new
UPS Canada- I have never run into a more arrogant,incompetent bunch in my life (Ebay's coming close these days tho...)
I flipped about that brokerage fee which doubled the price of a box of trading cards.
I refused them, seller understood, and I think we split the reshipping cost (been awhile.)
I called those yoyo's to complain and their answer was only "Well that's why we're the cheapest/biggest shipper. HUH? What the hell did that have to do with anything.
Then there's the time I scheduled a pickup for 6:30 PM sat around till 8:00 waiting for this bozo and then finally I get fed up and call the 800 number, the response was "Oh, the trucks were all in, so they didn't pick it up." Then why bother making arrangements to pick the frigginh thing up. (The only reason I used those a-holes is because the buyer insisted.)
Then there's the time I picked upa parcel from the uS that they forgot to gouge me their graft fee on. The sicced a collection agency on me because their counter person was incompetent.
And people wonder why I utterly refuse to use UPS.
posted on September 7, 2000 09:11:18 PM new
Imabrit
How are they supposed to know that UPS tacks on 30.00 in fact did you know that FEDEX does it too,even on items over 1500 years old.Age makes no diff,its a BROKERAGE FEE.
Yes, I know FedEx charges the same sort of rediculous fees. Why do I know this?
Because I did my homework before I shipped the item.
BTW - UPS Canada [and many parts of the U.S.] will not insure Antiques & Collectibles. How do I know this?
Because I did my homework before I shipped the item.
IMO it's up to the seller to know the ins & outs of the shipping service they use, not the customer who has sent their $$$ in good faith.
You name the country I have just about shipped it there,but I do not use UPS.
posted on September 8, 2000 12:03:09 AM new
Since I charge actual shipping, I send my international customers the link to the USPS website that has the costs for the different types of shipping. This seems to work in most cases. They can click around on their own to see if there is insurance or not on the selection they choose.
I hate UPS and wouldn't use them if they were the last shipping outlet on earth.
posted on September 8, 2000 06:17:22 AM new
To cheer EVERYONE'S day ... as long as we are UPS-bashing.
I used to commute past the main UPS depot, and every day there would ba a line-up of brown vans waiting to make the left turn. With the normal commute traffic there was usually a backup at the light, but the turn lane would usually be empty. It could take a couple of green lights before these trucks could actually get to the lane and turn.
One day a driver got a bit impatient and tried to squeeze past the line of non-turning cars by running with his left wheels up on the median curb. He was doing great until the right front wheel hit a pothole and the truck fell flat on its side.
