posted on September 14, 2000 03:19:44 PM new
Go to the eBay Book Board scroll down to 13:17:09 nicholsonj. There is a link to OTWA discussion. Apparently someone spoke to PayPal today and got additional information as to what they consider a seller. Very interesting read.
posted on September 14, 2000 04:00:19 PM new
Thanks for the information nowwhat.
Looks like PayPal hasn't figured out what a "business" is -- one rep is quoted as saying 20-30 transactions a day, another rep is quoted as saying 30 a month.
All in one phone call!
posted on September 14, 2000 04:07:20 PM new
We are now being told by other PayPal reps that their definition of a business is someone who has more than 20 transactions.
So, us eBay sellers who only do 20 or so a month... heck, even those who do 20 a week, have absolutely no reason to upgrade.
You may keep your personal account.
PayPal will only smash down your door and wave guns in your face if you are averaging 20 to 30 transactions per day.
Of course, they could change their minds tomorrow.... They have a history of doing that.
"My possessions are causing me suspicion." - Neil Finn
posted on September 14, 2000 06:50:38 PM new
Hi all:
I'm back from making rounds on other boards. There are clearly a lot of concerns and questions about PayPal's recent reminder message. I can’t answer all of them in one post, but I want to address some of your most important concerns.
We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments. When people started using it for e-commerce, we evolved as a company, expanded our features, and in June created Business Accounts (for companies) and Premier Accounts (for individual entrepreneurs). We told our users that we wouldn't force people to upgrade, but that didn't mean it was OK for business users to violate our terms of use and conduct their commerce with a PayPal Personal Account. That's why we sent out an email in July that reminded business users of our policy.
While 250,000 of our users did understand what our terms of use required and decided to upgrade to or open a Premier or Business Account, a number of users either honestly weren't aware of our policy or else chose to ignore it. Since we assume that most people like to play by the rules and hence wouldn't expect PayPal to continue to subsidize their auctions with free credit card processing, customer service, and fraud protection, we sent the login page as a reminder to our active users. That's all it was, just a reminder of a policy that we've publicized before -- not a new one. It wasn’t meant for someone who occasionally sells personal items online; it was meant for those who are part-time or full-time sellers. We're sorry if the page seemed abrupt or ominous to some of you. It certainly wasn't intended to be. We were just trying to make sure that you all knew about our existing "business use" policy.
We also wanted to be straightforward and notify you that we're considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use. We hope we won’t have to, but if we do, we’ll strive to be fair and we'll be sure to announce the new policy through emails and content on our website at least two weeks before we implement it. Contrary to what has been reported on some threads, no policy has yet been determined; we have not decided on a specific transaction limit, or even whether this would be the best approach. We can say this: We don't intend to surprise anyone by automatically upgrading their account or shutting them down. We may have to limit costly functionality on Personal Accounts (like the ability to accept unlimited credit card payments), but everyone will have a choice, and as we’ve said all along, no one will be forced to upgrade.
Please understand that PayPal can’t subsidize large volumes of credit card transactions -- especially since we'll be giving a big part of the float back to our users starting next month in the form of income on funds left in your PayPal account. So, if you're selling goods to make a profit, we're asking you to play by the rules and upgrade to the account that is most applicable to you (either Premier or Business). We want to make online payments safe and easy for everyone, but we need your help to do this.
If you have thoughts or concerns on what our policy should be, please email us your suggestions (mailto:[email protected]). Since I can't possibly respond to every specific comment or question on the boards, please also use this email for any questions you may have. I will make sure that the whole team (including management) sees your comments, and we will try to answer every question as soon as possible.
Thanks again for your comments, and for caring about PayPal. We appreciate your feedback.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:33:52 PM new
Damon,
I appreciate the response, but you're not really clarifying anything. Exactly what level of activity constitutes "business" use?
We're hearing 20-30 per day, we're hearing 20-30 per month, we're hearing hundreds of dollars per month, and thousands of dollars per month.
All my transactions are "person to person" in nature. I do sell collectibles on eBay, as a way to subsidize my collection activities, and to add to my retirement income, but I am not a "Business" by anyone's standards except your own. Not the IRS, not the city I live in, and not in my mind, or the mind of my average customer.
Nothing has changed on my end since you agressively solicted my involvement in your "always free" service. I enlisted hundreds of my customer and fellow sellers, and now you've changed the ground rules.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:47:04 PM new
Damon -
"We're sorry if the page seemed abrupt or ominous to some of you. It certainly wasn't intended to be."
I see the same writers who were respionsible for the "verified/unverified" fiasco are still on staff.
"Contrary to what has been reported on some threads, no policy has yet been determined; we have not decided on a specific transaction limit, or even whether this would be the best approach."
You know, businesses that survive longer than a year or two do NOT make major announcements about enforcing a policy until AFTER they have decided exactly what what that policy will be.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:47:34 PM newPaypaldamon wrote,
"We told our users that we wouldn't force people to upgrade, but that didn't mean it was OK for business users to violate our terms of use and conduct their commerce with a PayPal Personal Account."
When we joined Paypal, there was only one type of account. At that time, Paypal targeted eBay sellers, and advertised their services as "always free." Later, a business-type account was introduced. We received a lengthy email describing the new features, with one line buried near the bottom stating that business are required to upgrade their account.
Following much discussion here at AW, paypal rep Paypaldamon assured us that no one would be forced to upgrade. It was plainly stated that Paypal hoped the added features of the business account would be incentive enough for users (eBay sellers) to upgrade on their own.
Barry (Godzillatemple) put his finger precisely on the issue. We are not "forced" to upgrade our account, we are "required" to upgrade our account. This type of Clintonesque, weasel wording is unacceptable. Moreover, Paypal is now calling our honesty into question, because they have changed the rules of the game. We are called dishonest because we expect Paypal to honor the original conditions of our agreement. While Paypal waffles on what exactly they consider to be a business, obviously it was their plan all along to sucker eBay sellers with promises of "always free," and then require us to upgrade to a for-pay account.
I can tell you that I am offended when Paypal accuses me of dishonesty. Paypal's earlier claims of "we make money on the float" are now replaced by "we can't afford to do this, you'll have to pay for it." It's obvious who's lying here. What's ironic is that I would have voluntarily upgraded to the business account once the shopping cart was in place. But now I see Paypal has a total lack of regard for the truth. We have been suckered.
I am looking at Payplace.com. They offer free credit card transactions including American Express. Yahoo also offers free online payments. My customers may grumble a bit, but if they want to use a credit card they will sign up for Payplace. I will NOT deal with a company that changes our agreement mid-stream and then accuses me of dishonesty.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:53:46 PM new
twinsoft -
"We received a lengthy email describing the new features, with one line buried near the bottom stating that business are required to upgrade their account."
That was a month AFTER a PayPal sent a letter advertising the business account features that SPECIFICALLY STATED that no one would be forced to upgrade.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:55:19 PM new
Well PaypalDamon,
This lovely piece of doubletalking BS has taken me off the fence and to the decision to close my Paypal account.
I was recruited on the basis of this is a FREE way to move money INCLUDING A GREAT FREE WAY TO TAKE AUCTION PAYMENTS VIA CREDIT CARD. It seemed to be a legit business so I signed on.
Then it wasn't good enough to have given my bank account informatoin for deposits, Paypal wanted to have access to my money via verification. I didn't need to verify as I would never fund my Paypal through my bank account, but then, we will tell your buyers not to trust you unless you are verified. So I was forced into verifying my x.com account so people could pay me comfortably. This despite the fact that I have outstanding feedback on both Ebay and Yahoo.
This is the last straw. This stuff has never been properly rolled out, has slammed people upside the head and generally been unpleasant. YOU HAVE OFFERED NO INCENTIVE FOR ME TO UPGRADE MY ACCOUNT. Once international capabilities were here, I most likely would have upgraded to have that ability. Your company does not understand how to give people incentive to do stuff. I do not upgrade based on what is coming, I upgrade based on what you can offer now!
Then I see this and I realize that no matter what my customers want, I don't want to be associated with this sorry company. (I left my last job for the same reason after being there for 8 years +, the company was great when I started, but became rather sorry.)
I was a loyal user who touted your business to many, many people and it takes a lot to loose my loyalty. But you all have managed to do that with the sorry handling of your announcements.
Once my current auctions have run their course, I will be removing all my money and closing the account. Let the record show that this is NOT because of the fees, it is because paypal has acted badly and given me no incentive to upgrade my account. I will be closing my x.com as well, so you all are a double loser on this one.
Have a great day.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:06:33 PM new
PAYPALDAMON
Why do you keep using that silly euphemism "reminder message"? It was an ultimatum, plain and simple. When I signed up for paypal there was no Business account even offered. Will you at least admit that PayPal UNILATERALLY changed the TOS thereby creating a situation where many users were in violation of the new TOS? Can you at least acknowledge that fact instead of suggesting that all of us evil users conspired to cheat paypal?
posted on September 14, 2000 08:18:06 PM new
damon wrote: So, if you're selling goods to make a profit, we're asking you to play by the rules and upgrade to the account that is most applicable to you (either Premier or Business).
So if someone sells something "to make a profit" but doesn't make a profit, that still makes them a business? How are you going to prove they made a profit? Or even that their intention was to make a profit?
What am I worried about anyway, I won't be with PayPal long enough to find out...
posted on September 14, 2000 08:24:00 PM new
I guess AW is going to lock this thread soon, but before they do, I just want to say BYE BYE PAYPAL.
Count me among those who see bait and switch as Paypal's primary modus operandi. The bait 'n switch tactic began when we all registered with credit cards because Paypal told us we needed to "verify" ourselves with a credit card. Do you rememeber Paypal telling us they could confirm our name and address by comparing it to our credit card name and billing address. And then there was the old street address confirmation. But suddenly, it was "we need your bank account" to verify your identity" (but what about what you said when you wanted our credit cards?!). Because I refused, I was 'branded' by Paypal as UNVERIFIED and I saw this as Paypal's way of trying to force me, or intimidate me into providing my bank account number. Hmmmm, threats and intimidation didn't work though. Now, they're talking fees and business registration for anyone who sells...and all this flim flam back and forth, making announcements and then trying to back off with we-haven't-made-policy-yet statements.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:32:55 PM new
Once again, just in case Damon misses it in all the other threads....
"We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments."
Again with that word "always". Forgive me if I'm wrong, but originally "you" [meaning PayPal] didn't say ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about person-to-person payments vs. other types of payments. You simply said "PayPal will always be free". Period. The personal/business distinction was NEVER MENTIONED until this past June.
You changed your terms in June, breaking the original promise you made to induce people to sign up with your services. Fine. Whatever. It happens all the time, and you should consider a succesdsful career in politics. But would please stop LYING about it now??? Enough with this "always" crap!
We also wanted to be straightforward and notify you that we're considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use. We hope we won’t have to, but if we do, we’ll strive to be fair and we'll be sure to announce the new policy through emails and content on our website at least two weeks before we implement it. Contrary to what has been reported on some threads, no policy has yet been determined; we have not decided on a specific transaction limit, or even whether this would be the best approach. We can say this: We don't intend to surprise anyone by automatically upgrading their account or shutting them down. We may have to limit costly functionality on Personal Accounts (like the ability to accept unlimited credit card payments), but everyone will have a choice, and as we’ve said all along, no one will be forced to upgrade.
Don't have a dictionary handy, Damon? Well, let me make it easy for you:
enforcev.t.: To impose (obedience, etc.) by force.
When you "enforce" a policy which REQUIRES certain people to do something, you are "forcing" those people to do that thing. You want to change your terms whenever you want? Go right ahead. You want to force people to upgrade to a business account if they fit your description of a "business"? That's your right.
BUT STOP LYING TO US ABOUT IT!!!
Your terms require certain people to upgrade to a business acount, and you are "considering" a way to "enforce" your terms. Which is to say you plan on forcing people to upgrade. But then, a few sentences later you have the gall to repeat for the umpteenth time that you DON'T plan on forcing anyone to upgrade.
Next time, Damon, at least have the decency to put these sentences in separate paragraphs so it's not QUITE as obvious that you hold us and our intellects in such utter contempt.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 08:38:29 PM new
I am NOT a paypal user, never have been, never will be...basically because every time I was temped, another paypal problem popped up on these boards....This online selling is tricky enough without adding another layer of potential problems to the mix....So these discussions shouldn't concern me, but I keep seeing the same point being made over & over and it's total audacity in the faces of those sellers who relied on your service is appalling
In your statement here paypaldamon you stated We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments. When people started using it for ecommerce,....when PEOPLE STARED USING IT FOR ECOMMERCE???...WHO ARE YOU TRYIN" TO KID???....PAYPAL went directly to auction seller/buyers with a bunch of "sign-up bonus" cash to ATTRACT (or should I say "Lure" people to sign up....These people were your target, NOT person-to-person who wanted to esend money to the grandkids or college students etc.....
YOU want to change you policies, and charge for your service, that's fine!...But STOP makin' a bad situation worse by lying over and over and over....
posted on September 14, 2000 08:46:13 PM new
"We also wanted to be straightforward and notify you that we're considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use. "
posted on September 14, 2000 09:41:01 PM new
Paypal is gone, as soon as the EFT's come through. Shucks! I am going to be a nervous wreck with my money stuck in limbo by a "fly by night" wannabe bank. This added wait for the EFT could hurt me. 7 days? Is this their way of punishing people who opted out of their service? Or is this just a ploy to create more "float"? I just pray the money gets there. With all that I heard about Paypal, I DON'T TRUST THEM and what we are doing is "making a run on the bank" Does anyone know what that means? I do.
It's a very scary thought... And I am a very paranoid person.
-Del
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill
posted on September 14, 2000 10:14:33 PM new
Paypal will not "force" anyone to upgrade. They will simply allow no more than five or ten payments to a "personal" account per month. I guess this is the new double-secret policy.
posted on September 15, 2000 05:10:43 AM new
What can I say? I waited before I would take the plunge with PayPal and now I am glade I did. I tried to warn others that thought just because they used PayPal that we all should. I even had a person sign me up with PayPal without my knowledge or permission. I have been told that NO WAY they can’t do that. Well they did and they even sent payment too me. I checked and yes I did have an account that I did not set up and it did show that I had funds in it. Bottom line is I have never received my funds, the buyer that set the account up never received the items he won on my auction and because he set my account up with a password that he did give to me and told me to change it. I in fact did change it but I have never been able to get back on sense. The person that was so sure of PayPal did email me and over and over told me how sorry he was about the whole thing. I tried to warn him and told him that I have heard too many horror stories right now to join and that I was going to wait until things where a little more stable before I would try to use them or any like them. Now I am glade that I did. My main problem with them was they will not ship to a PO Box # and I get all my payments through a PO Box #. I live in a high crime rate area and I do not want payments coming to my home. I do not let anyone make direct deposits into my banking account except my wife and myself. I fell we can do that just fine ourselves. With that and the fact that PayPal wants to tell me where I can and can not receive my payments I just don't want to have anything to do with them. I still feel that one day you can look for the bottom to drop out from under them and when it does if it does there will be a lot of people crying because they lost a lot of money. Companies that file for bankruptcy have a way of getting out of their problem that way. I say if you want to use them and trust them than so be it, but you should not assume that because someone might have second thought and do not want to use them are dead beats or rip off and what ever else you can think of to call the. If we loose money because we do not use them, than that is our loss and not others. I now use Bid Pay and knock on wood it's been ok so far, at least Western Union has been around for awhile and I do trust them. I also feel that the charge is placed where it should be, and that is on the buyer and not the seller. We as sellers buy the time we drive around and find our items to sell, buy or drive around and find the shipping materials to ship with, pay our listing fees and commissions after a sale have paid enough. I feel that if the buyer would like to pay by a CC# than they can also pay for that option, I do when I use a CC# to pay with.
posted on September 15, 2000 06:46:46 AM new
"one rep is quoted as saying 20-30 transactions a day, another rep is quoted as saying 30 a month."
I am confused about this statement. Does this mean I have 20-30 transactions a day going through paypal or does this mean I get 20-30 checks/M.O.s etc. through the mail delivered to my house each day? Or does it mean I have 20-30 auctions listed each day? O.K. Paypal what is your definition of is???
posted on September 15, 2000 09:48:47 AM newllama_lady ~ The fact that PayPal does not have any clear-cut TOS is just one of the big problems with this outfit. How can you have a variety of account available and not clearly define what the qualifications are to open one?
I think their original plan was to make ALL sellers open business accounts. That hasn't worked out too well so now they don't know quite what to do and are scrambling for solutions. They thought that once they had everyone hooked we would do whatever they wanted. It should be interesting to see what they finally come up with.
posted on September 15, 2000 10:11:48 AM newllamalady, here's a couple posts from PPD that'll clear things right up for you
6/13: "What type of activity do we classify as "business use"? Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade."
6/14: Contrary to what has been reported on some threads, no policy has yet been determined; we have not decided on a specific transaction limit, or even whether this would be the best approach. We can say this: We don't intend to surprise anyone by automatically upgrading their account or shutting them down.
Talk about ad hoc management...
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Sep 15, 2000 11:19 AM ]
posted on September 15, 2000 11:43:07 AM new
PaypalDamon,
Just read through your response.
I just need claification on this statement.
"It wasn’t meant for someone who occasionally
sells personal items online; it was meant for those who are part-time or full-time sellers."
What constitutes occasionally?
I've only done 20 auctions since June due to health problems. 8 sold and 3 were paid through paypal.
Due to the continuing health problems I'll only be doing 5 to 10 auctions a month. If only a few of those actually sell and if only 1 or 2 chose paypal does this constitute occasionally?
I also use paypal to send money for birthdays, to a friend for God-Daughter's college fund, gifts for family, etc.
Since I don't do the above daily I'm guessing that is occasional use.
Please accurately define what constitutes occasional use?
And why on earth is Paypal sending Buyers a rebate of .03 cents? (Saw this on another thread)
If 1500 buyers a day are getting a .03 cent rebate from Paypal that adds up to $45.00 a day, $315.00 a week, $1260.00 a month, and $15,120.00 a year. (my math may be wrong as I'm math impaired).
Is this a thank you to the buyers from Paypal for using a seller with a business or premier account? Is Paypal taking .03 of the .25 charged to the seller and rebating the buyer?
Just curious since you really want sellers to upgrade to charge them a fee and percentage.
Thanks..
people to sign up....These people were your target, NOT person-to-person who wanted to esend money to the grandkids or college students etc.....