posted on September 22, 2000 10:55:03 AM
I asked both ebay and paypal if I could charge a service charge for accepting paypal payments, since now I am being charged 1.9% plus $.25 per transaction. I know, I know, it's not that much, but I signed up for the paypal service that was, "always free", and only because I was hounded by bidders who would not take no for an answer. If it had not been free I would not have signed up.
Anyway this is the response I got from paypaldamon:
"That would be at your discretion, but from other postings I have read on the subject, it would possibly violate eBay's policy."
So I asked ebay, and this is the insulting response I got from ebay customer support:
"Hello,
Thank you for giving us the opportunity to answer your question. We are
always glad to help.
We don't have a policy on that, however, it does seem a little shady.
We do have a policy against charging any of your eBay fees to the
winning bidder though so as long as you don't do that you'll be alright
with us.
I hope this information helps. We appreciate your participation in the
eBay community. Please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any
additional questions.
Regards,
Stan H.
eBay Customer Support "
Hey ebay, I dont like being called shady for trying to keep my cost down or considering charging the buyer for THEIR, convenience service. A check or money order is more convenient for me, because I don't have to go login to some web site to make sure I've been paid, then request my money for a second time from this third party service.
I think ebay could have and should have answered my question with out the name calling! What do you thing ebay?
I think if anything is shady, its a company that solicited all of us ebay sellers with the slogan, "alway free", then tells them they are required to upgrade because they sell stuff. Duh, we was selling stuff when they was giving us $10 and $5 to sign up for their "free service". Frankly the word scam comes to mind!
posted on September 22, 2000 11:03:24 AM
It's against the law in several states for sellers to pass the cost of credit card processing on to their customers as an added fee. For this reason, you cannot do it on ebaY. However, PayPal is not a merchant account service and does not fall under the same laws... as a matter of fact, they don't fall under ANY laws!
PayPal is not a bank. They do not release their financial statements. They are not insured (your account is insured if someone hacks in and takes your money, but not if they go belly up, or to South America~).
The CEO has NO real banking background, X.com started and with a lot of venture capital which enabled it to buy up the more successful PayPal. The CEO hasn't even run a profitable business, his 'claim to fame' is building and selling an unprofitable business for $300million.
It is rumored that PayPal/X.com has been losing as much as $10million a month due to costs and referral payouts. There is no way to substantiate or deny this...
They said 'Free Forever' and now it's not...
So either A) they lied, or B) they built the business based on a completely ridiculous business plan... They pay about 2% per transaction to Visa/MC and always have... the idea that they could make money just off float when paying 2% per transaction is absurd. PayPal is now saying that they can't make money this way, well... DUH!!!
So now they are talking about creating a situation that will charge their biggest customers more than their smallest customers.
They are not regulated by the FTC, there are no rules for them to follow, there are no safeguards in place for your money or your customer's money... at least none that are apparent.
So... whether they are cheating liars or buffoons, they are not going to be trusted with my money, or my customers' money.
Even small independent banks make their financial statements available to customers. PayPal does not.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:07:36 AM
Well, about the first three lines of that reply was on topic...Is there any chance of putting the paypal bashing to rest? I understand the issues, I for one am sick of seeing them again and again.
I don't really see what's shady about clearly telling a bidder in the auction that you'll need to charge for paypal, and why. I've been thinking about that myself.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:12:13 AM
True, you can't charge a seperate fee for CC's. But merchants do sometimes raise the overall price and have a "discount for cash". You see that a lot in computer magazine ads. Fine print at the bottom says "prices refelct cash discount".
You could always just add your "fee" into the auction price. Then again that wouldn't be fair to buyers who pay by check/MO.
Yup, welcome to business life. Like it or not.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/artsnflies/
posted on September 22, 2000 11:15:35 AM
It is against the law to charge your customers a fee for credit card processing in many states.
If you tell your customers that you are going to charge them for PayPal processing, it is likely to seem 'shady' to them because it's against the law to do it in a standard merchant account situation.
While PayPal is not governed by the laws in question, that would not be apparent to many people and they might think of it as 'shady', as in 'taking advantage of a loophole'.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:16:56 AM
You could raise your shipping and handling by a quarter, then knock it back off if the bidder doesn't pay via paypal.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:23:25 AM
yankeejoe,
I don't think we can put this paypal bashing to rest at all. Posting here is the only way most people will know what is happening. If you are tired of these thread then don't participate in them.
I for one want everyone to know what the issues are, and there are many, so we can all make an informed decision.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:28:52 AM
I think the real issue being raised here is the lack of professionalism in the response from Ebay's representative. I've found this to be the case as often as not, especially on the Ebay discussion boards (certain pinks' responses there make me wonder if English is their second language and they're still on the steep part of the learning curve, both with respect to reading comprehension and communicating with others in writing). Maybe it's the Generation X mentality, maybe it's failure of the schools to teach things like proper business correspondence and professional demeanor (I blame that "whole language" concept for teaching reading and language arts). I definitely agree that the response could have been more effectively and tactfully worded than referring to it as "...seem[ing] a bit shady...".
posted on September 22, 2000 11:30:16 AM
Antique,
I wasn't referring to your post...yours was a good question, in my opinion. I just get tired of seeing every thread veer off to paypal bashing, even when it's started with a real question, like yours. How can people not know what's going on? There's a 500 message thread on the paypal problem.
[ edited by yankeejoe on Sep 22, 2000 11:31 AM ]
posted on September 22, 2000 12:09:11 PM
Instead of
"We don't have a policy on that, however, it does seem a little shady. We do have a policy against charging any of your eBay fees to the winning bidder though so as long as you don't do that you'll be alright with us."
they could have said something like,
"We do not have a specific policy in regard to Paypal fees, but we would advise against this, as passing on credit card handling fees to customers is illegal in many states. Just for your information, eBay does have a policy against charging any of your eBay fees to your winning bidder."
Yeah, they'd still be mentioning that it's illegal, but at least they'd be advising you of laws and clarifying their own rules on eBay fees without seeming to imply you were intending to be a shady dealer.
Or is mine just as bad?
Regardless, companies that are concerned about their image hire at least some good business-to-customer writers -- ones that don't have to talk in legalese, technicalese, power speakese, valleyeez, or grade schoolese to get the point across in a friendly way.
(Now if only they'd speak as clearly in their privacy statements, on the boards, and elsewhere... )
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on September 22, 2000 12:11:56 PM
YankeeJoe~
Please send me your email address and I'll be sure to clear my posts through you to make sure that they are not off topic. Of course, this subject is also off topic, so maybe you should send me your posts and we can check each other before hitting 'Post Reply'.
posted on September 22, 2000 12:12:11 PM
* * * The answer is clear. Suppose sellers started saying "2% discount for NOT using PayPal" -?? Think PayPal would like THAT kind of publicity?
posted on September 22, 2000 12:20:15 PM
Toyranch, my point is that there's a huge thread that's just made for paypal bashing. I try to avoid it because I've already read all about it. I read other threads, like this one, because the subject isn't paypal bashing and maybe I can learn something or pass on an idea. Then again, I think you already know what my point is. To spare the originator of this thread, I'll just quiet down. You win.
posted on September 22, 2000 12:40:06 PM
I've seen listings that charged fees for difference services. One of these had a $1.00 handling fee and gave a $1.00 discount if the buyer paid with cash or a money order. Other discounts were offered, a $0.65 discount if they used BillPoint's eCheck, etc. Buyers aren't stupid and if they see you playing games like that they are going to wonder what other games you have up your sleeve (I sure as hell would). My advice is to accept the fees or don't offer the services that require them.
posted on September 22, 2000 12:44:15 PM
I simply don't see it as bashing... bashing is 'PayPal sucks'
I am sick of having to defend my right to have an opinion or state facts or anything because it seems that whenever I make a post on AuctionWatch, someone comes along to call into question whether or not it should be made, whether it's made in the right place, whether it's made for the right reason, etc. etc. etc... so you win. I'm officially on AuctionWatch posting vacation.
posted on September 22, 2000 02:23:36 PM
Paypal pays the transaction fee to Visa. Logically, they are the ones accepting the money, not the seller. Paypal passes its fees on the the customer (us eBay sellers). My guess is that's illegal in California, where Paypal is located. I think Paypal has some 'splainin' to do about that charge they pass along.
I think (though I don't know) that by the time the money reaches the seller, it can't be said that the seller is accepting a credit card payment. Who knows? This is a precedent. Adding a 2% transaction fee in your TOS is probably okay, but it might confuse bidders. Offering a discount for cash/money order payments is more the norm.
I think eBay's resonse was dumb and poorly thought out (if at all). Someone asked a question regarding the legality of a certain practice, and eBay replied with an "opinion." Hey, if I want an opinion I'll ask my Grandma.
Why anyone would want to deal with Paypal in the first place is a different question.
posted on September 22, 2000 02:47:54 PM
Add the cost to your auction price. Sure you are not going to get an exact price because you won't know how much your auction will eventually end but you can add a flat rate to your auction to recoup the cost. Every business does that...they include overheads, shipping etc. to their price.
You might say add 50 cents for auctions you believe should be worth $50 or less or 65 cents for auctions from $55-100. Just an example. You do the math yourself. Add that to your starting price. If an auction that you believe should be worth $50 ends at say $200, I'd just pat myself & it would have more than been absorb. You just made $100 (or more) profit so why worry about the small Paypal fee. Its those auction where you are barely making a profit that those Paypal fees will hurt you. Or you can increase your shipping & handling. It can be an invisible charge to your customers.
posted on September 22, 2000 06:35:50 PM
"it" seems shady - I took it as a hit on the practice, not you. Also, I can see where maybe they meant to convey that this was a "shady area" and they couldn't give you a definite answer (as in some states, yes, some states, no, etc.)
posted on September 23, 2000 10:08:51 AM
I don't think ebay had to call anyone shady. I also think these third party services are getting out of hand. Maybe ebay should have thought about offering these service earlier and we wouldn't have had to go elsewhere to get them. When I started selling on ebay there were really no third party services to speak of. Pongo was hosting pictures for 0.25 each. Wonder how much business they get now? Now you can get "FREE" image hosting, web sites, counters, auction managers, credit card processing, html editors, and even list on some auction sites for free. Free seems to be the catch frase these days.
One thing I think we have all learned form this PayPal thing is that nothing is free, or free for very long.
IMO, eBay should have told PayPal if you want to advertise your service, then go out and pay for it, but your not to have these buttons and banners on our site, text only. I think eBay played a small role in allowing this third party stuff to thrive in "the eBay community", of course that easy to say now. I think it's pretty funny that we are now getting offers from Billpoint of lower fees, or should I say restructured fees, but thats the way I'm leaning. Billpoint seems is more credible and the fee's are more realistic, which means they are probably here to stay. Can anyone say the same about PayPal, I don't know?
But, back to the question, yes ebay shouldn't have called anyone shady for considering all options, and checking to see if they would violate ebay policy. I would have been better if they would have said, We hope you don't do this, but that is up to you. Of course paypal doesn't care, I think it's pretty clear they only care about paypal. So thats my 2 cents worth, and thats probably all it's worth at that .
posted on September 23, 2000 12:00:13 PM
I have gone down to a personal account. I dont sell that much sigh. They told me it would take 48 hours. It took two weeks lolI do like getting payment quickly. Two weeks or more is a long time to wait. Then going to the bank with all the checks and money orders sigh. Now that is work... IMO
posted on September 23, 2000 12:55:18 PM
I have to go to the post office anyway, and my bank is just a block away from the post office so its on the way there or on the way back, no big. I'm thinking of downgrading, but I still worry about:
account freezes when credit card fraud occures, how safe our money really is, trusting what paypal says, why paypal will not accept an insurance reciept as proof of shipment which means we now have to charge for DC when accepting paypal. Can anyone else think of any other worries?
posted on September 23, 2000 09:07:47 PM
EBAY BACK PEDDLES*********
This is an email I received today because of my post to the message boards:
Hello,
I saw your post regarding eBay's policies around sellers charging credit
card surcharges to their bidders who pay via Visa/MC etc. Unfortunately,
you were given some misinformation from the Customer Service Rep that worked
with you. Credit card surcharges are illegal in some states, including
California where eBay is headquartered, and we do not allow sellers to pass
on this type of fee. This policy is documented in our Listing Policies
document, which you can find at:
I've also posted to the thread you started, so others will understand our
policies. I've contacted the supervisor of support so they can make sure
that this representative is aware of this policy, and I do appreciate your
taking your question to the boards. I apologize for any confusion this
caused. If you have further questions, let me know.
Daphne
eBay Community Support
_________________________
Ebay, Inc.
NOW MY RESPONSE TO EBAY:
First of all let me say That accepting PayPal is not the same thing as accepting credit cards, I WAS accepting PayPal transfers from by bidders PayPal account. Very much the same way some banks charge to transafer fund from one account to another. Please be more specific in regards to weather ebay has a policy against charging a fee for accepting PayPal transfers and if so please state for the record "that I may not charge a service charge for accepting PayPal", because I do not take credit cards.
Incase you are unaware of how PayPal works, the seller has an account and the buyer has an account, these two parties transfer funds between each others accounts. The only way a credit card is involved is if the buyer funds thier PayPal account with a credit card, the buyer may also transfer fund from their checking account or use money that someone else has sent to them. In reality the credit card transaction would take place between PayPal and their cutomer, not between the auction seller and the buyer. However should one take advantage the new PayPal Instant purchase feature this would not be the case because this does involve a credit card. Otherwise as a seller I have no way of knowing who uses a credit card.
Now that's the real question, CAN I CHARGE A SERVICE CHARGE FOR ACCEPTING PAYPAL PAYMENTS. Please answer that and thank you.
posted on September 23, 2000 09:18:49 PMWe do have a policy against charging any of your eBay fees to the winning bidder though so as long as you don't do that you'll be alright with us.
Hmm, so charging your buyers a handling fee exactly the same as your final value fee is against the rules...
There are way too many CSR giving different answers.
.