twinsoft
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posted on October 11, 2000 03:09:23 PM
(edited to insert the link to the auction
Hi, please take a look at eBay auction
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=460084455
I am posting this link because it seems to me the seller is taking an adversarial approach towards his customers. I can sympathize with the seller. Sometimes I feel like strangling a customer myself. On the other hand, I don't think this approach really appeals to bidders. What do you think?
[ edited by twinsoft on Oct 13, 2000 09:14 PM ]
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twinsoft
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posted on October 11, 2000 03:19:50 PM
The seller has been notified and a CC: sent to AuctionWatch.
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Crystalline_Sliver
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posted on October 11, 2000 03:23:05 PM
I'm guesing "eBay society" is gradually going downhill.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
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rarriffle
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posted on October 11, 2000 03:25:58 PM
Well I'm a newbie seller, only about 2 months now. But I am sick already of buyers who won't answer emails. You just get the money in xxxx number of days, or nothing! I even check feedback, and most of these have great feedback from other buyers, why pick on me? waaaahhhhhhh
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capotasto
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posted on October 11, 2000 03:58:05 PM
You get the money??? So what's the problem.
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on October 11, 2000 04:04:00 PM
But I am sick already of buyers who won't answer emails. You just get the money in xxxx number of days
Could be worse- you could get an email answer but no money...
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snowyegret
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posted on October 11, 2000 04:46:06 PM
I like buyers who send me money!
As long as the shipping address comes, via email or with payment, no problem.
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twinsoft
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posted on October 12, 2000 03:49:48 PM
bringing this to the top since the 24-hour grace period is up.
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mzalez
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posted on October 12, 2000 03:59:01 PM
parsimonious?
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sword013
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:02:31 PM
I also see that he is passing the Billpoint and Paypal fees along to his buyers, which as far as I have heard, is an ebay no-no.
With a TOS like this one I am surprised that he receives any bids at all. I certainly would be VERY put off by it.
Sword013(Joe)
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bkkofaz
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:07:20 PM
Not only is it an eBay no-no, it is ILLEGAL and subject to dispute with your credit card company. You cannot charge a customer an additional fee for credit card payments! At least not in America!
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schoonerdude
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:26:44 PM
How absurd! You CAN charge customers a fee/percentage for using a credit-card to re-coup the credit card processing expenses. Illegal? As in "go to jail" for doing this?. It happens in business everyday. I would be interested in reading where E-Bay prohibits this (they may have something to say about BidPay, but not other credit-card processing services).
Private to "twinsoft": Are you the PC TOS police? I suggest clicking on your browser's "back" button when encountering a seller whose TOS offends you and allow his (potential) customers to vote with their wallet.
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preacher4u
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:30:50 PM
~~Thanks to all of you who make eBaying such a fantastic experience~~
I'm sure he's not talking 'bout himself.
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive
Even the signs seemed to tell me otherwise
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/preacher4u/
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ShellyHerr
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:35:39 PM
schoonerdude-I don't believe you can charge for the CC fee's you incur in a transaction. I think its somewhere on ebay, I know someones posted a link before about it. He specifically says Billpoint and PayPal .
And even if you have your own merchant account, I don't believe you can. We have one for our online store, and Do Not add those charges to customers.
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preacher4u
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:37:51 PM
schoonerdude
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-list.html
Credit Card Surcharges
An eBay seller may not charge a fee, often called a "credit card surcharge," when accepting credit card payments. This surcharge, which is an added cost to the buyer over and above the final sale price and shipping/handling, is not allowed under the laws of many states, including California. For more information, see:
http://www-s2.visa.com/fb/merch/biz/govt/surcharge.html
http://www.mastercard.com/consumer/cust_serv.html
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schoonerdude
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:42:46 PM
I did read the links and it does seem to be against E-Bay policies. My apologies. I will have to find some "creative" way to pass this cost along.
HOWEVER, it is not "illegal" to do this. According to the links provided, MasterCard and Visa do not allow their merchants to add a surcharge, but you aren't about to go to jail for doing this (you might get the "boot" from Visa/MC, though). It bothers me when people throw around the term "illegal" when they don't understand.
I WILL continue recovering my costs for PayPal (I am not the merchant, PayPal is).
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Sadie999
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:53:42 PM
In biz, don't we pass on all our fees?
Cost of item + potential fees + packaging + min profit you're willing to accept on that item = your starting bid?
Or whatever formula each person uses.
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millicent_roberts
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posted on October 12, 2000 04:56:10 PM
I have seen worse. I just don't report them because it is NOT my auction and NOT my place.
Much worse. More adverserial. Go figure.
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lotsafuzz
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posted on October 12, 2000 05:15:02 PM
Huh. I liked the guy's ad. Seems really clear.
Would be much more comfortable bidding on this guys stuff than someone who ships in used pizza boxes.
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uaru
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posted on October 12, 2000 05:36:18 PM
<snip>
----------
Original comments removed. I don't think I'd want to be on public trial for my listings so I'll withdraw from the jury and apologize for my reckless observations anyone saw before I removed them.
[ edited by uaru on Oct 12, 2000 07:02 PM ]
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twinsoft
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posted on October 12, 2000 06:40:26 PM
Hi, I didn't post the link to play Net Cop or comment on the fee for Billpoint, etc. I posted it because I have noticed that a lot of sellers are getting bent out of shape from dealing with cusotmers. It's happening more and more, and I've been tempted to write an ad like this ("if you don't like it, don't bid, etc." ) but so far have resisted temptation.
I do like the seller's ad, and by the way I have used that product and he's offering a great deal. It's a sad state at eBay when sellers rant about customers in their auction descriptions.
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mrjim
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posted on October 13, 2000 05:27:23 AM
Yes he can charge a surcharge and it is not illegal or against Ebay policy.
The charge is for using a "Payment Service" which may or may not involve a credit card. PayPal is not a Merchant Account or Bank, just a Person to Person payment system, therefore you can charge for it's use. Just as you can charge extra for same day shipping, express shipping, or gift wrapping.
PayPal cannot charge you extra if you use a credit card (which is why they charge businesses for payments made by bank transfer or current balances) because it violates their agreement with MasterCard and Visa, and some state laws.
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abingdoncomputers
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posted on October 13, 2000 05:58:53 AM
Credit Card Surcharges
An eBay seller may not charge a fee, often called a "credit card surcharge," when accepting credit card payments. This surcharge, which is an added cost to the buyer over and above the final sale price and shipping/handling, is not allowed under the laws of many states, including California.
These quotes are rules stated for businesses that use a merchant account to accept credit cards directly. If you use PayPal and Billpoint you are not accepting credit cards. You are using the services of other companies that accept credit cards. PayPal and Billpoint are the merchants as far as VISA and Mastercard are concerned, and the above quotes apply to them, not their customers.
Think of it this way: Accepting payment from PayPal, Billpoint, and BidPay are exactly the same, except for the way that the seller gets paid. With BidPay, the seller receives a Western Union money order PURCHASED by BidPay through a credit card merchant account. The seller did not accept a credit card. The seller accepted a money order which was provided as a service from BidPay. A PayPal and Billpoint transaction is the same. The seller is purchasing a service (unless it is a personal account in which case the service is free) from PayPal and Billpoint. PayPal charges the buyer's card or takes funds their bank account, then transfers those funds into your account. The seller NEVER has a transaction with the credit card company. PayPal does.
This is why PayPal says the chargeback issue is at the discretion of the credit card company. They have no other choice. Under the terms of THEIR merchant account, chargebacks are allowed. This is why PayPal dreamed up their "verification" scheme involving the bank accounts. Since they have no choice about accepting the chargebacks from THEIR merchant account, their only recourse is to recover the charged back funds fom the seller if possible.
The rules against credit card surcharges do not apply to customers of PayPal and Billpoint, because AT NO TIME are they accepting credit cards unless they have and use their own merchant account.
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pickersangel
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posted on October 13, 2000 06:15:50 AM
A better alternative to "passing along" charges for services like PP or BP is to offer incentives (e.g. a discount) for using other payment methods. Positive reinforcement is generally more effective than punishment, and the legality of doing it this way is not open to question, as is passing on the fee directly.
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HJW
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posted on October 13, 2000 06:43:31 AM
twinsoft:
I don't see this as adversarial. It's legal,
straightforward and I would not change a word.
Helen
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artsnflies
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posted on October 13, 2000 06:51:12 AM
We feel this sellers pain.
Seems like a lot more "in for the fun of it" bidders and not really buyers. Also very annoying when a high bidder can't even hit the REPLY button to say they're sending payment.
Finally, it seems ebay is being flooded with lawyers as bidders. Seems soooooo many more bidders are nit-picking every little detail of the auction, terms etc. If you don't expressly say it they'll rip you on it.
Won't be long before we all have auctions that are a fe lines of item description and pages of legaleaze details.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/artsnflies/
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millicent_roberts
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posted on October 13, 2000 06:52:36 AM
There are a number of threads about deadbeats and how difficult it is to get the fees back right here on AW. Given those circumstances, and they are occurring more than ever, I again state that these TOS's are much tamer than some I have seen.
It's called survival. And a way to try and prevent a deadbeat from bidding on an auction that took up YOUR time and YOUR money to list. "Rant" or rat? I will repeat myself and say again, if I find an auction with an interesting TOS, I dont' report it because it isn't my auction or my concern. I merely understand where I stand with that seller.
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Capriole
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posted on October 13, 2000 10:57:39 AM
Aside from the clearly illegal surcharges I think it is kind of funny.
There is a constant discussion from bidders who get packages ("Shipping ended up at 77 cents and I paid $3.20!" that are clear bait and switch for priority scenarios. It is refreshingly humorous to see this kind of tos.
If you are going to do a flat rate and you need to educate the public this is a rugged way to do it, but may be it's working.
My gut instinct is to send it priority, say it and don't even get your bidders on the defensive from the outset...wait until they get that 77 cent package!
joke! joke!
Capriole
(only capriole here)
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twinsoft
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posted on October 13, 2000 12:03:25 PM
Here are a few excerpts from the TOS which is about three screenfulls long, in large, bold type:
"I'm not going to waste hours..."
"I'm sick of emails..."
"If you are one of those people, DO NOT BID ON MY AUCTIONS."
"I will respond in kind to your neutral/negative feedback."
"I am not responsible for lost or damaged items."
There may be others, but this is one of the most unfriendly ads I have seen. In a TOS, I think the payment instructions should appear, NOT threats about reciprocal negative feedback or personal diatribes from the seller. I think it's unprofessional, especially when the item will sell for under $10 bucks. Why subject potential customers to this kind of abuse?
I understand and sympathize with the seller's POV, and I know that dealing with the public through auction sales does try one's patience. But I think that the seller should draw the line at throwing a hissy-fit in his own auction description. After all, I've never had any dealings with him. Why is he treatening me with negative feedback?
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lotsafuzz
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posted on October 13, 2000 12:20:06 PM
After all, I've never had any dealings with him. Why is he threatening me with negative feedback?
The way I see it, unless YOU bid YOU are not being threatened with anything. Also, isn't feedback always hanging over the buyers/sellers head? If I don't pay then the seller could neg me. If I don't ship the buyer could neg. me. All this guy does is state what is already known.
"I am not responsible for lost or damaged items."
That is a VERY common statement. If you are worried about your item arriving, pony up the .85 cents for insurance.
The other 4 quotes are about the shipping. I think you should have completed the quote: "I'm sick of emails..." because, again, that was about shipping and was very plainly stated. The guy isn't saying, "don't email me about my product"
His statements about shipping are very clear. No way a bidder could come back and say, "Gee, I didn't know".
If you want the item and think the sellers terms are reasonable: BID. If you want the item but the terms are UNreasonable to you: DON'T BID.
This guy doesn't work for you and you don't work for him so his business practices should be none on your concern.
In fact, if you were selling the exact same item but your shipping was exact shipping and you didn't charge for the use of a credit card HIS business practices would actually HELP you.
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