posted on October 27, 2000 10:08:14 AM
I had a really collectible and hard to find Vintage toy I was saving for the holidays to get the most out of it.
Suddently, and to my dismay, another one popped up, though mine was in better shape.
I followed the auction closely, and a bidding war ensued at the end. The item ended at 2X the pirce I hoped to get for it... needless to say I was Mad!
I took a look at the bidding history, and clear enough, the winner and the runner-up drove the price sky high, and the third one had a bid less than half of the final bid price.
If i listed my item, I reasoned, the runner up on that auction would most probably win it, but since the final price is defined on what the underbidder bids, my odds on getting a good price were slim. (let it be known that that was the first time that item showed up on eBay ALL year, but since there is a very small collectors base on it, well, there ya go)
After giving it a lot of thought, I finally did it.... I emailed the runner up and offered her the item, at a 90% of her bid price, and threw in shipping for free. She promptly and cheerfully accepted.
So, I'm guilty at bottom feeding, but don't feel that much bad.
posted on October 27, 2000 11:48:46 AM
Sounds good to me.
Welcome to the world of Capitalism at it's finest.
You found an opportunity and took it. Now just depsosit the money and wait for the next sale.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on October 27, 2000 11:51:57 AMOffering a simple person to person transaction may be in the grey zone IF they were a bidder on your own auctions
It seems well established that underbidders can be offered copies of the item by the seller after the close of auction without penalty by eBay. In the same sense that 2nd place bidder can be offered the item if 1st place deadbeats. Particularly when they are offered the item at their bid price.
eBay rules suggest that bidding on an auction legitimately establishes a relationship between the bidder and the seller involving that auction.
posted on October 27, 2000 03:29:32 PM
It aint gray, its polkey dotted like a heynas butt. Heyenas butts are spotted aren't they? Because if they aren't my whole visualization via the written word just fell apart like a dandelion gone to seed in a wind storm.
posted on October 27, 2000 03:32:39 PM
See ok, what if the high bidder on that auction left town with no forwarding addy. In such a case the item might be offered to the underbidder. Not anymore of course. http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/[email protected]/
posted on October 27, 2000 03:55:16 PM
aaaaaah yes but are we not talking about hyenas as well? That was kinda my angle. Trout eat live stuff. Catfish..... not only don't have spots but they are way overused as examples of things that eat dead stuff.
On a side note, catfish is just the nastiest tasting fish there is anywhere.
posted on October 27, 2000 04:05:34 PM
You'd better hope that whoever you sent that email to doesn't contact the other seller and/or SafeHarbor... it's not bottomfeeding, it's SPAM, and it is a HUGE eBay no-no.
posted on October 27, 2000 04:08:27 PM
Hmmmm.... are there trollish hyenas?
I don't think I've eaten catfish; trout are very good dredged in flower pan-fried. A minnow is generally not worth the trouble, though.
By the way, did you know that the phrase "There are more ways than one to skin a cat" doesn't refer to cats? It refers to catfish, which must be skinned for cooking (and the catfish was named that because of its cat-like whiskers).
posted on October 27, 2000 04:14:39 PM
Right you are. I suggest most humbly that you continue as before in NEVER eating catfish.
Trout is wonderful beyond describing.
Minnows are good for catching trout. I'm not sure what they are, but we get little tiny dried fish from the oriental market sometimes, and they are definately worth the effort. One just needs to know how to prepare them. (it almost always involves sesame oil sugar and dried red pepper.
posted on October 27, 2000 04:46:51 PMsg52: The person emailed the underbidder of another seller's auction. This is a grey area to you?
It depends on what they propose.
If they advertise an auction, it's as black as black can be. Safeharbor comes down hard.
If they offer a non-auction transaction at underbidder's price for "another one", that's grey. Safeharbor, will not punish it, even when the seller offers an eBay id for checking feedback. What makes it grey is the general climate of spam, and the fact that most of us receive so much spam that we object to anything which comes close.
posted on October 27, 2000 04:49:10 PM
Well...don't know whether to bother posting on this thread or not. Better noses smell a troll, I think.
However, just a note to (not) clarify eBay's ambiguous position on contacting underbidder's, on your own or someone else's auction.
I don't have the link handy, but I know I have read that contacting underbidders, EVEN UNDERBIDDERS ON YOUR OWN AUCTIONS, is considered SPAM, and is not allowed under eBay's rules.
However, when eBay is faced with crediting you your FVF for a NPB, they ENCOURAGE you to contact an underbidder.
So it seems that you must never contact a bidder on someone else's auction...and if you contact your own underbidder, be SURE you tell him/her that the high bidder defaulted.
Apparently this will keep all of our spotty bottoms covered.
posted on October 27, 2000 05:05:10 PMI don't have the link handy, but I know I have read that contacting underbidders, EVEN UNDERBIDDERS ON YOUR OWN AUCTIONS, is considered SPAM, and is not allowed under eBay's rules.
It depends on what you offer.
If you run another auction and spam it to your underbidders, then absolutely, you're dead. Good riddance.
But if, in the context of the auction which the bid was made, you make an offer of a transaction for the item bid on, or one substantially the same, that's vastly different to Safeharbor.
posted on October 27, 2000 05:06:55 PM
Actually, I've been told that even though eBay traditionally encouraged contacting your (own) underbidder if the high bidder defaulted, they're not necessarily encouraging it now, because the underbidder can't leave feedback and has no fraud or insurance protection.
posted on October 27, 2000 05:08:36 PMApparently, whether or not the email you send is spam depends on whether or not eBay stands to lose money.
I think it has more to do with a pragmatic definition of spam. An advertised auction number is pretty clearly spam. A personal offer to an underbidder will range from white to grey, but never quite reach black, and it's nearly impossible to put a concise line in that space.
posted on October 27, 2000 05:13:21 PMA personal offer to an underbidder will range from white to grey, but never quite reach black, and it's nearly impossible to put a concise line in that space.
This is the situation I was commenting on- as you noted, the situation with regards to an advertised auction number is a lot more straighforward.
posted on October 27, 2000 06:33:33 PM
Of course it's spam! It doesn't matter who sent what and what circumstances surrounded the email, ANY unsolicited commercial email is spam. Period.
Now, as a seller, I would never do it.
As a bidder, I would never buy from someone who sent me a spam. If I were perusing listings for another item like the one I just lost out to another bidder and came across the one held by a seller who had just spammed me I would walk on by.
posted on October 27, 2000 06:58:48 PM
I really don't think I would let my own personal vendetta against spam get in the way on getting something I really want. If somebody would email me offering something I've been searching high & low for, I'd be delighted, not PO'ed.
I personally think there are different ways of categorizing commercial emails. The real spam (not the canned meat type) is the generic tipe of email, offering you the same stuff along with a long list of suckers whose emails, along with yours, got into the wrong hands. A personal email, offering the receiver a specific item, which by way of research, the sender knows the person getting it really wants it, is, IMO, not spam.
the ebay definition of spam is "unsolicited commercial email". It makes no distinction between "mass market" and "carefully researched". If a recipient of same did not solicit it, and complains, the sender is exposing themselves to the threat of sanctions by ebay. Of course, the chance of someone complaining probably goes down as the email becomes more personalized and less mass-market, but your distinction is irrelevant, according to ebay rules.
sg52: How do you know that safeharbor (presumably acting as an official representative of ebay) would be OK with a seller offering the second high bidder a second copy of the item? Do you have an official ruling? Since this is basically fee avoidance, its hard to see ebay officially blessing it. I certainly don't see anything in the rules that allows it, so perhaps you can offer us your evidence in this matter?
posted on October 27, 2000 07:37:35 PM
It seems well established that underbidders can be offered copies of the item by the seller after the close of auction without penalty by eBay. In the same sense that 2nd place bidder can be offered the item if 1st place deadbeats. Particularly when they are offered the item at their bid price.
----------------------------------
That's not my understanding. I think they'd object rather strenuously, after all, where's THEIR fee in such a transaction? (IOW, fee avoidance.) After all, ebay *introduced* you to these people. From their *official* standpoint, where's the protection for buyer and seller in such a transaction?
They (ebay) might also object on the issue of spam IF the recipient complained to SafeHarbor.
On a different tack, I'm surprised (didn't realize) that it's such a no-no to advertise your own auction of the same item to another sellers' underbidders (on closed auctions). Other than the spam issue, why is it so bad? At least ebay is getting its fees that way.
I'll confess - I did that once. I had an unusual item that didn't sell and didn't sell -- after at least 4 rounds. Browsing through ebay one day I noticed one just like it going for decent money. I waited until that auction closed, and only then relisted the item and emailed the underbidders that I had one too that I had just listed. One woman wrote back that she appreciated my letting her know, and I think she's the one who won it. I was thrilled to FINALLY sell the danged thing.
posted on October 27, 2000 07:41:39 PM
Quote from Ebay rulebook:
"43035001 Member Violations: Email from other Users: I received an email with an offer to purchase an item. We would discourage you from participating in any transactions outside of eBay's listing format. This is a violation of our policy prohibiting direct sale."
"43035002 Member Violations: Email from other Users: I wasn't the high bidder, but someone who was NOT the seller offered me an ' EXTRA' one. We would discourage you from participating in any transactions outside of eBay's listing format. This is a violation of our policy prohibiting direct sale"
That pretty much spells it out as far as Ebay's point of view.
However, if you are happy and the buyer is happy and Ebay isn't, oh well. Congratulations on the sale.
posted on October 27, 2000 07:56:10 PM
Not really sure what "direct sale" means- unless eBay is claiming that any sale outside of eBay is prohibited (in which case the phrase "delusions of grandeur" comes to mind!).
I've also never heard of the eBay "rule book:" if it's real, email me it to me, would ya?
eBay has come down on both sides of the fence on sellers contacting their underbidders to sell an identical item. They warn outbid bidders not to accept such offers, in part because they violate eBay's rules (rule not cited). Yet they encourage contacting underbidders when #1 bidder flakes- well, either it's spam or it isn't (it's not in my book).
Here's an email exchange that makes the point (I've redacted the user's info, but it's legit).
*********
----- Original Message -----
From: "eBay Customer Support" <[email protected]>
To: "********c.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Other features questions (KMM15912076C0KM)
Hello,
Thank you for your e-mail. Any communications that takes place between a
seller and a bidder after an auction has ended are beyond eBay's
policies.
In summary, yes a seller can offer the item to other bidders if the
auction has ended.
If you are to complete a transaction off of eBay with a seller without
going through the auction process, then eBay policies do not apply.
For further details on eBay Listing Policies including eBay policy on
Fee Circumvention please visit the following URL:
I hope that I have addressed all of your concerns, and if you need
further assistance please feel free to e-mail me back.
Regards,
Alexandra
eBay Community Watch Team
______________________________
eBay
Your Personal Trading Community (tm)
*******************************************
Original message follows:
-------------------------
Form Message
Subject: Other features questions
Item:
Message: I cannot find any information on what eBay would consider fee
avoidance! Where would I look?
I had a question posed to me by someone:
"If I contact the "loosers" of MY auction and offerred them the same
item as originally listed at their bid price-would that be legal?"-
I said NO, I do not believe it would be either ethical OR allowable, but
I cannot find anything that I can show to this person as PROOF!!!!
posted on October 27, 2000 07:58:19 PM
This is one example of why I raised my opinion yesterday that the #1 problem with Ebay is having bidders user ID's and e-mails public. Who wins in this situation, Ebay....obviously not as they get nothing from the second transaction; the 2nd bidder....not likely, as the originator of this thread proposed, the 2nd bidder wound up paying more than they would have had the bottomfeeder gone ahead and ran an auction. The bottomfeeder wins. Yes it is a free market, but to who's benefit. And what about the next person who has this item for sale, how do they fare now that the FREE market has prevailed?
[ edited by pointy on Oct 27, 2000 07:59 PM ]
