posted on December 8, 2000 11:04:57 AM
I'm getting a bit discouraged by online payment systems. Paypal is a seller's nightmare. Yahoo works fine, but it isn't sophisticated. I'm usually chasing after a half-dozen Yahoo buyers who forgot to include their shipping info with payment. (For some reason, they usually send payment from a "stealth" email account, which complicates matters more.)
I offer my customers the convenience of paying by credit card, but their convenience is creating a real hassle for me. Those of you who sell expensive items probably must accept credit cards because customers expect it. My business is an online lemonade stand by comparison. This little frill is taking up more time than it is worth. I'm spending too much time dealing with blood-sucking corporations and chasing after bonehead customers.
Online payment, which is used by only a small percentage of my customers, creates a greatly disproportionate amount of hassle. It's nice to be able to offer, but being constantly engaged with one Paypal/Yahoo problem or another is a disservice to my customers who are considerate enough to pay by check or money order. Those customers shouldn't be made to wait just so I can offer a frill to a few others.
I stopped accepting Paypal and it didn't affect my sales at all that I can tell. And it's nice looking at a huge stack of envelopes on my desk again. Like it was last year before I got involved with the Paypal nightmare.
I think I will be discouraging online payments from now on. Oh sure, I bought into the "you must accept credit cards" fallacy thing. But judging from sales, it doesn't make a bit of difference. The time I spend playing Paypal's flunky can be better spent developing new products, providing customer support and listing new items. I need to get back to basics and stop playing Fortune 500 for the benefit of Paypal and others.
posted on December 8, 2000 11:15:27 AM
...here, here...! Looking back, I only made one very big sale, with Paypal...the others were not worth the new headaches caused by online payments...
They seem to help a lot when item is not too expensive: like "impulse buying" articles placed at the cash register...not much money, but enough to make one flash out the CC...
My sales have not gone down...(nor UP, come to think of it (wink-wink), since I dropped Paypal. I mention it in my listing, and not one viewer has questioned it.
******************** Gosh Shosh!
posted on December 8, 2000 11:18:14 AM
Well by you not accepting online payments anymore is GREAT for me !!!
I love watching all these sellers on here so mad at Paypal they are quiting them. It is making my sales go up and I LOVE IT !!
Sure, Paypal has its problems ( I will be the first to admit that ), but I am not about to turn away customers that want to use Paypal to pay me.
70% of all my sales are completed through Paypal and as of yet I have had no problems from Paypal. I read alot of horror stories about Paypal on these threads, but most of the horror stories are from crooked sellers trying to beat the system.
all these people trying to use Paypal and trying to remain hidden, not wanting to give Paypal all of their info and then start crying when their accounts get frozen.
I hear people crying about how long it takes to get a check from Paypal, but isn't this what electronic transfers are for ??
I have had no problems with Paypal. I did not like some of the changes they made in their TOS and website, but the service is useful and to many of my customers use it.
But twinsoft,
You are turning away customers by not accepting online payments and of course you are not going to notice it because they are not going to be buying from you !!
posted on December 8, 2000 12:15:35 PM
"I read alot of horror stories about Paypal on these threads, but most of the horror stories are from crooked sellers
trying to beat the system.
Is this hard fact, or supposition on your part?
edited for UBB
[ edited by vargas on Dec 8, 2000 12:16 PM ]
[ edited by vargas on Dec 8, 2000 12:17 PM ]
posted on December 8, 2000 12:24:31 PM ... most of the horror stories are from crooked sellers trying to beat the system ... not wanting to give Paypal all of their info and then start crying when their accounts get frozen.
I think you have Paypal confused with ExchangePath, which closed customers' accounts and required a credit card number to be added. Not at all in the same league as Paypal's scams.
I thought the same. People having problems with Paypal must be doing something wrong. As far as crooked, there's no justification for that at all. Someone can pay you with a stolen credit card, and Paypal will freeze your account for several months. During that time, they will continue to accept payments with or without your permission. They will tell your customers the money has been deposited to your account. You'll have to ship out the product. Business as usual, except you won't have any money coming in to pay the bills. This same scenario can happen any number of ways. Think how easy it would be to sabotage a competitor's business. If you think it can't happen to you, you're whistling past the graveyard. A seller would have to be insane to use Paypal.
I have had no problems with Paypal. I did not like some of the changes they made in their TOS and website, but the service is useful and so many of my customers use it.
Sure customers use it, because we all advertised Paypal heavily in our eBay ads. The reason: $5 and $10 referrals. I made hundreds of dollars in PP referrals. Apparently Paypal's strategy worked. Most sellers now believe they can't survive without Paypal.
You are turning away customers by not accepting online payments and of course you are not going to notice it because they are not going to be buying from you !!
I've been selling at eBay for over three years, and I think I can tell if my sales are up or down. I hoped that I made it clear from my initial post that my sales were not affected when I discontinued Paypal. I was a lot happier, though, not worrying about the next time they would simply put a grab on my money.
Again, the time I'm wasting dealing with Paypal/Yahoo, for the benefit of a few customers, could be better spent developing new products, providing customer support, listing new items, etc. I don't see that as "driving customers away" at all. I see it as putting my priorities in order. And I don't think that bending over backwards to make payment easier is the most important aspect of my business.
Paypal's business model, like many new Silicon Valley businesses, is different than mine. Paypal is modelled after the "start-up." It is designed to make its owners a billion dollars overnight. As such, Paypal relies mostly on smoke and mirrors. Paypal did have a great, a realy great idea, but look closely and you'll see Paypal's owners are fattening it up for the sale.
posted on December 8, 2000 12:26:49 PM
>>I read alot of horror stories about Paypal on these threads, but most of the horror stories are from crooked sellers
trying to beat the system. <<
I would guess that most of the horror stories are from sellers complaining about how crooked buyers beat them using Paypal's system. A few are from buyers beaten by crooked sellers while PP tells them to wait and wait until the deadline for making a charge back has passed. The rest are from sellers whose accounts were frozen due to Paypal's stupidity. The real crooks don't bother to post here. They are busy taking the PP suckers for everything they can get.
Fortunately, there are still at least two online payments systems that do work, Moneyzap and Achex. Read the details
posted on December 8, 2000 12:45:09 PM
Hey, everyone. The focus of this thread is not more Paypal bashing. Nor it is about Paypal cheerleading. My own Paypal account is closed and won't be reopened. At this point I'm more bothered by Yahoo customers who forget to include shipping addresses.
My main point here is that FOR ME, good or bad, these online payment companies are not worth it. They all have unfriendly terms. None of them will investigate a buyer's claim, they will simply deduct the money from our account. They all represent an unknown quantity - especially when they have direct access to our bank accounts. Are they really necessary? Are the benefits worth the risks, the aggravation, just so I can play "Fortune 500?" Will my eBay business fail because I tell Paypal "no thanks?"
There's more to this than what Paypal did and when, and I'd really like to avoid another Paypal gripe session.
(edited to remove a double-negative, it's just that kind of "double-negative" day...)
posted on December 8, 2000 12:55:43 PMMy main point here is that FOR ME, good or bad, these online payment companies are not worth it.
I really think this is a fantastic point. Personally, this is a fulltime business for me, and it is worth it for me to offer virtually any type of payment that the buyer wishes to use.
However, this is certainly not the case for everyone.
I have to say that I very, very rarely bid on items on which the seller doesn't accept credit cards. But so what. You can't please everyone.
One compromise is to point out that buyers can use Bidpay. Sure it's expensive, but for many people, including myself, it is often well worth it.
I guess what I'm really saying here is that people get WAY too stressed out about trying to please all of the people all of the time. It's a nice goal, but if this is not your fulltime occupation --- relax, enjoy it. So you lose a couple of bucks here and there. Big deal. At least you retain your sanity.
posted on December 8, 2000 01:03:20 PM
Good,
I like the idea of a seller willing to take my personal check. Means a little trust is in offering, even if they wait until it clears is ok with me.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on December 8, 2000 01:09:06 PMYou are turning away customers by (fill in the blank from the list below) and of course you are not going to notice it because they are not going to be buying from you !!
A. not accepting checks
B. charging for handling
C. writing poor descriptions
D. holding shipment for checks
E. accepting payment by money order only
F. using animated gif's in your auction listing
G. not accepting online payments
H. having a threatening TOS
I. shipping by priority mail only
J. not selling internationally
K. not including photos in your listing
L. you probably get the idea by now
Every seller has to determine what the best course is for their business, and what works for one is not necessarily good for all. I still accept online payments in my auctions, but if it ever gets to the point where I find that the time I invest in dealing with them could be better spent on other projects, I will drop that option in a heartbeat.
Thanks- I guess I'll never really understand the concept of making every effort to attract every bidder possible. It doesn't matter what you do, you can't please everybody, so I figure there's no point in going miles out of my way trying.
With apologies to the writer(s) of the movie "When Harry Met Sally", I'd just as soon leave the "high maintenance" bidders to other sellers.
posted on December 8, 2000 01:40:53 PM
I agree with you twinsoft. I think my main problem is offering too many choices...Billpoint, Paypal, Amazon, Visa/MC with my own merchant acct, checks/money orders.
With Paypal and Amazon I always have to print out the payments from each site and compare them to the e-mail payment notices, very time consuming.
Taking credit cards direct I have to run them manually. Then the headaches of declined cards.
Billpoint I usually have to send an invoice so the customer can pay, a real waste of time.
I love the days I get a good stack of checks and money orders in the mail. Very quick to fill orders.
If the majority of people would pay with the same method it wouldn't be so bad. But a few here, a few here, etc. gets to be a pain.
posted on December 8, 2000 02:38:01 PM
Twinsoft- I recently (last week) stopped accepting 3rd party payment services in my auctions as well. I agree with you- not worth the headache. In my case cash flow was a major issue as well.
I can honestly say my sales have dropped a bit since I stopped. But so has my stress level. I was really tired of stressing about having a car full of wrapped packages with no money in hand to ship them all out. I strive for same day shipping (or at least next day shipping) and it's been a LOT easier for me since I've returned to checks & money orders only.
Go ahead, PayPal cheerleaders. Bash me if you want. If I'm happy who are you to argue with that?
posted on December 8, 2000 02:38:31 PM
I had another thought concerning the idea that a seller will lose business by not accepting online payments.
There have been threads here in the past discussing transaction fees charged by the online service(s) and sellers' thoughts about charging for them by increasing their S/H charges. One could make the case that a buyer who is not in need of immediate shipping might pass up a seller who offers the option of online payment for one who accepts checks only, based on the premise that the "checks only" seller is not charging the buyer extra for an unneeded service.
posted on December 8, 2000 02:54:15 PM
I had thought that too Mr.Potatohead.
When I buy on Ebay, I often SEEK OUT auctions of sellers who ONLY accept money orders, since I pay for all my auctions by money order. It makes for less competition from other bidders for one thing, but I also know I won't have to pay extra CC fees.
Unfortunately I think I may be in the minority when you get right down to it, but I guess time will tell.
posted on December 8, 2000 04:14:52 PM
I'm glad this is an "online" chat. Try going to the dentist, getting a mouth full of novocaine, and then say "playing Paypal's flunky" three times fast. PFfbblttt!!
Thanks for your input, I'm glad I'm not alone on this. Hopefully, when I'm dead and gone, they won't write "He should have accepted Paypal" on my tombstone.
posted on December 8, 2000 04:45:40 PM
Hi - With a deep breath I stopped accepting PayPal and went back to accepting checks or money orders only about 4 weeks ago and haven't noticed any difference at all in sales (I've actually had a real good November and December after a bad October when I was still accepting PayPal) Most of my items sell for under $50.00, so between ebay fees and then paypal fees, it was just eating away at too much of my profits. So for me, anyway, it turned out to be a good move.
posted on December 8, 2000 06:23:14 PM
Twinsoft- LOL at your post! That's funny! I never did accept PayPal but I have a funny feeling that maybe there will be some people with "(S)he SHOULDN'T HAVE accepted PayPal" on their tombstones. *Shrug* Or not, I don't know. I just do what works for me, and PayPal DOESN'T.
posted on December 8, 2000 08:23:40 PM
I think it is to much of a generalization to assume that a seller who is accepting credit cards either with a merchant account or a third party service is increasing his opening bid or shipping/handling fees to cover the credit card fees...many sellers, including me, do no such thing.
posted on December 8, 2000 08:48:20 PM
Well, yes- it is a generalization. As is stating that a seller who stops accepting credit card payments will lose his buyers to sellers who do accept credit cards.
posted on December 8, 2000 08:57:47 PM
Though I'm still getting payments through Paypal,about 80% of my payments have been made through Billpoint since the BIN started.
I'm running 200 to 300 auctions monthly. Don't accept any credit cards, never have, never will. No Paypal. I'll take Bidpay money orders, especially good for international transactions -- safe, fast, and guaranteed once confirmed. I also take Billpoint electronic check transfers, which are also quite fast & again guaranteed once confirmed, and both Bidpay & Billpoint don't have a fee for the seller.
Other than that I'll accept checks, money orders, bank drafts, western union wire transfers, and yes even cash.
Sales are better than ever, everything works fine, and I don't mind the extra bit of work in sending someone a Billpoint invoice, heck you can do it right from the item page for the completed auction & have the invoice completed & sent in under 2 minutes -- I can't even type an e-mail that fast!
posted on December 8, 2000 09:36:49 PM
I'm leaning toward the originator of this post. Very eloquently stated!
I made MUCH MORE money a year ago before I started dealing with these money grubbing incompetent, parasite CC companies.
I too, had a STACK of pmts at ALL times and maybe 1 deadbeat every 6 weeks.
I find it insulting to get "update increases" from Paypal. Just because they can't make enough profit on my sales-----they should have done a 5 year business plan like normal entrepreneurs do. These irratic increases reflect their incompetence as a solvent business. The fact that they are UNINSURED,new in the business, and displaying the above practices is distressing to me.
Yahoo Paydirect - I believe should do better, but so far not batting 1000-- they've managed to drag out the float time to some rediculous amount of time- and are not providing correct contact info (stealth email add's) which sends sellers on a treasure hunt to track down their bidder and right address. NOT good!
I believe I will now start adding to my auctions, "to avoid delays, incorrect contact information or account balance errors, you may wish to consider sending a check or money order."
Just the opposite of what I thought I would be saying after selling since 1997!!!
posted on December 8, 2000 10:00:36 PM
Y'all might guess I never did accept payment service payments (except Bidpay). So I'll offer my buyer's perspective.
I have made several purchases simply because I could pay by credit card and get the fraud protection that that gives. When giving over $1000 to a 0/sunglasses, you like some protection of that nature.
My ideal payment is a seller which takes my card directly. A 0/glasses taking cards directly is better than 1000-0-0 feedback. I call, it's easy, fast, and I'm protected. But again, it doesn't add much to my bid until over about $500.
posted on December 8, 2000 10:10:19 PM
well, I don't have sunglasses, and I sell $10 items. I feel really bad for the customer who can't come up with a check or money order for that amount- (s)he shouldn't be bidding. I also don't see much need for fraud protection on a $10 item, especially since I offer a guarantee on my items.
posted on December 9, 2000 01:10:25 AM
^5 High Five Twin. To ME, in my own humble opinion, Paypal is a nightmare to buyers too. I thought it was great UNTIL I saw they were taking DOUBLE the amount I was paying out, telling me it is their "hold for seven days" policy!!! GASP Hold THIS. I use my debit card and I had paid out $150 on a turntable, and my account was missing $300! I had to wait a week for MY own $150 to be returned to account again. Now I ask you, what the h*ll is that. I am closing my Paypal account and happy to do it. :::oing happy dance::::: And as far as selling, people don't give me a problem about paying with money orders & checks, and yes it is nice to see them coming into the ol' PO box. :::more happy dance:::
Hold THIS. I use my debit card and I had paid out $150 on a turntable, and my account was missing $300! I had to wait a week for MY own $150 to be returned to account again. Now I ask you, what the h*ll is that. I am closing my Paypal account and happy to do it. :::