posted on January 5, 2001 04:30:22 AM
I was sitting under a tree when an apple fell and landed on my head. Suddenly it all became clear:
"Would you like to join my mailing list, and receive notice of my new items before they're even listed on eBay? To join my mailing list, just reply to this email with the words, "mailing list" in the Subject line. Each month I'll send you a newsletter with buying and selling tips, eBay-related news stories, links to free software and auction resources, plus word on my latest auction offerings. This is a confidential opt-in mailing list. You may opt-out of the mailing list at any time by sending a simple email removal request. Drop me a line today to join my list!"
Let's put our thick heads together and work up with convincing copy. Thanks!
posted on January 5, 2001 05:27:54 AM
twinsoft -
Sending UNSOLICITED invitations to join a commercial mailing list is SPAM, as much so as sending the ad itself ... and there are enough hardcore anti-spam net-Nazis on eBay that they would turn you in to your ISP and to eBay. Me for one.
Think on it ... with several million eBay sellers and more joining every day, how many invites do you want to have to delete every day?
ACCEPTABLE WAYS TO GET EMAIL ADDRESSES FOR MAILING LISTS:
1. In your EOA mail to a winning bidder, ask them if they want to be notified of similar items and give them a link or way to positively indicate interest. Do not assume that one transaction gives you any rights to use their email box for your ads until they tell you to stop. Some of them will ask your ISP and eBay to make you stop. I for one, will never ask to be deleted from an email list I did not ask to be subscribed to. I ask the ISP to delete the holder of the list instead.
Sending an email to the LOSING Bidders, IF you do it immediately AND IF it is not an easily available item, is not as clear-cut, but as long as it is the "ignore this and you will not hear from me again" kind of letter, you should not provoke them.
Of course, you should keep records of who you sent to and if someone won or lost multiple bids for similar items, have the common sense to NOT send them multiple emails. If you automate, make sure it has decent filtering to prevent this.
2. On your auction page, you could have a sign-up button or a link to a spot where they can enter their email address for notifications. This should record the DATE, TIME, and IP Address the request came from. It should also indicate what kind of item they are interested in.
This should NOT be immediately used as a valid address ... you need to send out a confirmation email to make sure the person who entered the adderss is the real owner of it. Include the DATE, TIME, and ISP the request came from so if the person is being list-bombed they can track the perp.
And a confirmation email should be of the "reply to get ads" kind, not "reply if you do not want ads". The second kind rudely assumes that a person should have to exert themselves to get off lists they might never have asked to be on. It's "opt-out" and it is bad.
Of course, you should check submissions, and a cluster of them from a single IP address is submitted in a short period of time, it's probably a prankster.
*****
You have to maintain lists ... process removes EVERY TIME, and BEFORE you send a newsletter or ad. And make sure you only send the kind of information that is requested. Just because I am willing to get notifications about 17th century widgeets, do not assume that I want to see ads for 17th century gadgets too.
posted on January 5, 2001 05:45:15 AM
Abacaxi, real quick, the paragraph above would be used as an email signature line, esp. for use in the seller's EOA notice. Steve
posted on January 5, 2001 05:56:09 AM
As long as you have a valid reason for sending the email, it's covered in item #1.
Maitaining email lists is time consuming, and you have obviously not done a newsletter ... to keep subscribers you have to have new content with each issue and you have to keep the advertising content down.
Also you might have a person who wants to know about widgets and doesn't want the newsletter. A simple database that lets you know who wants to know when certain items are available, that can kick out a short email note or at least a list of addresses, would be a lot more profitable use of time.
posted on January 5, 2001 06:37:28 AM
Hi, Abacaxi. Those are all good suggestions. I've never maintained a promotional newsletter, but I have edited a college newspaper. No big deal, I think I can present a well-rounded info-letter with "something for everyone," enough to make it interesting. Lots of bloviating, new sellers love that.
Getting customers to join my list is what I'm after. That's why I'd like some help framing the tag line I suggested above.
(The invitation could also be placed on a static web page linked from my various auctions.
For example, add a link like this within the auction text:
"Click _here_ to join my mailing list."
Then accept all submissions via a single web page form.)
posted on January 5, 2001 07:06:27 AM
"I think I can present a well-rounded info-letter with "something for everyone," enough to make it interesting. Lots of bloviating, new sellers love that."
Bloviating doesn't cut it in email. You have to be very precisely focused, and no BSing because people have a very limited tolerance for bloviating. they expect you to get to the point and make the point QUICK!
You will not be able to bloviate to the newbies and keep the rest of them interested. they will drop out real quick.
posted on January 5, 2001 07:58:15 AM
Abacaxi, if you'd like to discuss the "well-rounded info-letter," okay that's fine.
Let's see, I am thinking about including:
1) A synopsis of eBay "current events" reflecting recent news and policy changes at eBay. This would be a short paragraph or two of "eBay Headlines News." If I'm selling at Yahoo too, this can include Yahoo news as well.
2) Tips and tricks for buyers (and a few selling tips too). This can include "common sense" pointers for new buyers; for example, "Always check a seller's feedback ratings" or "Remember to include the auction item number in every correspondence." It might also include tips for power-buyers.
3) Links and reviews of auction-related resources on the web, including but not limited to reviews of other auction sites, auction support sites, chat boards and third-party auction management software.
4) Goodies (enticements) like free software, free giveaways, contest offers, etc. ("Visit my web site to download my free beanie-baby guide!" or "Visit my web site to enroll in this month's contest!" )
5) New and interesting content rotated on a regular basis.
6) And of course news and "rumors" of my own upcoming auctions!!
My remark about newbies and bloviating was made tongue in cheek. Truly, though, with my 3500 feedbacks and 10,000 eBay sales, my customers already consider me somewhat of an "expert" and expect my unique input. With proper emphasis, a "tips and tricks" section could even be one of the major "draws" of the info-letter.
I'm asking for specific help phrasing the "hook." Product development is this seller's strength, not promotion. Little help, please?
posted on January 5, 2001 08:20:36 AM
I have experience with online newsletters and corporate paper-based ones.
The amount of content you are thinking of would take a minimum of 20-30 hours per newsletter to collect and edit the information and also manage the mailing list.
Can you afford to divert that much time away from your auctions? Can you get enough profit from the list members to make the list worthwhile? Or would the time be better spent in finding items and listing them and keeping a less ambitious database of persons who want to be notified when you find a certain brand widget?
Your competition is EBAY, AW, and several other auctionsites, and they have dedicated staffers who can do nothing but develop content.
posted on January 5, 2001 10:13:30 AMAbacaxi, you seem dead set against this idea. I'm curious why. You keep mentioning the quality of the newsletter and now an estimate of 20 hours to produce one "mailer." Do you think mailing lists are too time-consuming?
Okay now, here's what I'm saying. A mailing list is one of the FEW, clearly-defined types of commercial messages between members that eBay does allow! eBay allows mailing lists, and does not attempt to regulate lists, as long as list members have explicitly reqeusted the info, and are allowed to "opt-out" of the list at any time.
A mailing list can serve as a logical link between your already-existing eBay customer base, and your private web site. A mailing list doesn't have to be great literature. Remember, these are people who have already expressed an interest by buying your product (or visiting your ad).
There's lots of fun stuff you can do with a mailing list. You can showcase items headed for eBay on your web site, and then invite list members to get a first glance and maybe first dibs on your stuff. Throw in a few monthly giveaways and Voila! you've got a successful e-commerce page.
By the way, my last home page (now abandoned) had nearly three quarters of a million page views.
posted on January 5, 2001 10:23:12 AM
twinsoft: I would like to take a look at your auction listings, and if you do get a newsletter started I would like to be on the mailing list of that as well. Sounds like a great idea to me!
My email address is [email protected] if you would like to give me your Ebay ID.
posted on January 5, 2001 10:48:43 AM
Twinsoft -
Information has to be targeted precisely to the needs and wants of the recipients ... it's very hard to have a newsletter that can attract a general audience AND satisfy those who are interested in a tiny amount of extremely relevant information. After a couple years on the net, and especially with my kind of job, email loses its novelty and becomes a chore.
I would ask a seller to let me know when they have items in a very NARROW category listed, but I would not be willing to read anything longer than two sentences letting me know what the auction number was.
Computers make it possible to send people what they want, and nothing more ... if you can design a decent database. There should be no need to subscribe to an entire newsletter just to hear about a widget. And I'm sure there are widget sellers who will be wiling to just send be an occaional alert when that 17th century pewter widget comes up for auction.
posted on January 5, 2001 11:25:07 AM
Abacaxi, if you're dealing in limited-stock items, like car parts, then it makes sense to maintain a database of customers' requests. But I buy items in large quantities. I have to move 100 items at a time, not one, so I must aggresively advertise these products. If I wait like the spider and the fly, I may never get rid of this great stuff!
Now, about mailing lists again.... (I know you guys are probably getting tired of this subject!)
I am using an online service that, in part, maintains a seller's mailing list. The service places a toolbar on each of my auctions, which allows customers to track my auction(s), email me a question, join my mailing list, read my FAQs, etc. If you're interested, you can see it in one of my closed auctions:
I mention this not to promote the toolbar (though I do have an interest), but because this toolbar at the bottom of the ad can subscribe mailing list members even if they aren't bidders.
If eBay (continues to) allow mailing list subscription links within ads, sellers with many ads/walk-bys can build up huge lists of private contacts, beyond eBay's watchful gaze. As far as I know, none of this is specifically prohibited by eBay.
posted on January 5, 2001 11:33:56 AM
No matter how you word it, the list and email has to be extremely targeted in order to get positive results rather than complaints. By extremely targetted, I mean sending emails to only people that have bid on your retired "Boyd's Bears" to tell them about other "Boyd's Bears" you have for sale. Not any other kind of bears, not "Boyd's Bunnies" or any other Boyd's products other than the exact type they bid on.
Once your list and products are this precisely defined, it doesn't matter what you say in the email. Nearly all of the responses will be very positive. As for a newsletter goes, don't waste your time. They won't read it. And if your email message has more than a couple lines, they won't read it either. Keep it short and sweet. Here is an example of the emails we send to our mailing list:
......
Hello Everyone,
Just a quick note to let you know we just added another 150 widgets to our site: www.widgetparadise.com
With Regards,
MrJim
......
We send this email to a mailing list of over 2,000 people that have either subscribed to our mailing list, bought from one of our websites, or won an auction from us on Ebay. In 3 years and over 50,000 emails sent, only one person has ever requested to be removed from our list. (and we have never had a complaint filed with Ebay) But we have an extremely targeted mailing list and mailing list software program that sorts the people into over 20 different categories to make sure that they only receive a notice when we add the "exact" item they collect.
Unless you sell a niche product or collectible that is very specific, no matter how you go about it, you will get complaints and possibly naru'd from ebay.
If it is done the way we do it, you can even get away with sending it to anyone you find on Ebay or other sites. (not that I ever have or would do this or recommend it)
posted on January 5, 2001 12:01:02 PMcodasaurus, yes I'm talking about an opt-in, opt-out mailing list. eBay's rules place only those two restrictions: List members must ask to join your list (my interpretation anyway), and they must be allowed to remove themselves via simple email request.
Folks, this is not a "newsletter" newsletter. I won't be including pics of my dog's new puppies. This is a very simple marketing tool designed to draw bidders to my web site. The site must have CONTENT. This is not rocket science.
I don't know how specifically you target customers. I figure that if my customer bought Doom 1, he might be interested in Doom 2 or even Doom 3 later on. And if the customer don't like it, dey git off the list. If they want the list, they get the list. And a few tidbits like freebies and auction news to make it less banal.
Anyway, I have't gotten much help from you guys. I've added something like the above to my auction EOA notices. The customer can ask to receive my promotional emails. The gloves are off, eBay!
posted on January 5, 2001 02:00:42 PM
hello mrfenn
I have deleted your post because it is a violation of the Community Guidelines to advertise products or services in the Message Center or to our members. Please review the CGs before posting again.
If one is selling items that are neatly categorized together then I can understand a short pitch in an end of auction email to a successful bidder.
Something along the lines of:
I sell many items of a similar nature. If you would be interested in receiving notification from me when I list these similar items please give me your permission to include you in my mailing list.
Assuming the buyer agrees, you are doing the buyer a favor. But to push a newsletter or opt-in mailing list at every opportunity just seems awful pushy to me.
As a buyer on eBay I am mainly interested in a very specific area that is not easily categorizable (telegraphic code books).
If I were to win a code book from a seller who featured an eclectic assortment of items I certainly wouldn't be interested in being on their mail list for all of their other auctions that are irrelevant to my collecting interests. And if they were "pushy" about requesting I opt-in to their mailing list I might send their emails on to safeharbor and ask eBay to ask them to tone down their pitch.
posted on January 5, 2001 02:31:35 PM"But to push a newsletter or opt-in mailing list at every opportunity just seems awful pushy to me."
So who's pushing? This is a short paragraph or one-line invitation that I send out as part of my EOA invoice. eBay has already said that is allowed. The customer must specifically request membership to my list, although I believe I'm within my eBay "rights" to send them a spam first, as long as I give them a chance to get off my list.
Now what I'm wondering is whether it's allowed to solicit mailing list membership from within the eBay ad. In other words, along with a "click here to visit my web site" link, can I put in a "click here to join my mailing list" link?
This looks to be a huge hole in eBay's dyke. Sellers can reap mailing list members from eBay pages and then solicit members directly, regardless of any past transaction history.
I agree with the others. I don't think the financial benefit will outweigh the labor involved. I do have a suggestion though - a HARD COPY newsletter (updated quarterly) included with every package you mail out. The newsletter could also advertise your web site and list a link where your latest product offerings are shown. You could have a coupon in the newsletter for use in any future auction purchase.
posted on January 5, 2001 02:55:50 PMtwinsoft: It sounds like you have the right idea with adding a few lines to the EOA and/or auction page to attract interest, and abacaxi's "Acceptable Ways..." rules spot-on nails the most respectful way to land members: advertise it only in something you already have to do (like an auction page or an EOA, rather than some separate, unsolicited... spam), implement the list as double opt-in (which saves everyone, including the list maintainer, irritation and headaches), and never sell or otherwise distribute information on your members to other parties. So you have the right idea with "confidential opt-in."
The "double" opt-in is about confirming any request someone makes to add themselves to a mailing list, as abacaxi described, because sometimes, it is not them asking, but a prankster faking up that person's address. I never wrote a newsletter or maintained a personal mailing list, but I help maintain a public mailing list that we made sure had good security and confirmation steps, because an earlier incarnation of the list that didn't have such checks ended up with a lot of people added to it that wanted nothing to do with it, and frequently complained or flamed as a result, resulting in further complaints/flames from true list members.
As to content, well, I'm not an expert, and I've never written my own newsletters, but a few thoughts (as a reader of some and also someone who enjoys writing)....
If you keep up on the (online) auction industry well (as I imagine you do ) and write good prose fairly quickly, I can't see it taking a ton of time for a basic email-based newsletter. Plain text requires little or no time for formatting issues such as columnizing, placing pictures, changing fonts and colors, etc., so it's really only how long would it take to write something that would be sufficiently interesting to read on a regular basis.
Yes, HTML email is available, but I think 90% of email clients are still plain-text only, and some others probably turn off the HTML features to block automatic redirects, bugs, ads, and other nonsense -- though how many do this, I have no numbers. Regardless, the more straightforward and "clean" your presentation is, the faster it will be for you.
The best combination for such a newsletter is probably a clean layout, crisp writing that is intelligent but understandable, relevant, concise, timely, and varied.
Personally, and I wish newspapers did a better job of this, I'd also be careful to separate presentation of "fact" and personal opinion, either by breaking them into separate (sub)sections or by clearly using phrases such as "in my opinion." Keep each of these separate from advertising your own auctions as well. Not that I'm saying you would, but blurring the divisions may sound enticing as a way to improve the newsletter and/or your sales, but people eventually pick up on this, and get turned off (sort of like with eBay's magazine, it sounds like).
Those are my opinions, based on reading and writing in general, not from writing any newsletter myself. I'll leave that part to you.
Back to your "hook," here's a variation of what you wrote, as another possible way of "framing" it:
"Would you like to receive notice of my new items before they're even listed on eBay? News about eBay [and the industry in general]? Buying and selling tips? Links to free software and auction resources? I write a monthly email newsletter containing all of these [and more]. This is a confidential opt-in mailing list, with easy and prompt removal should you later wish to unsubscribe. To sign up, send a [second] reply to this email with the words, "mailing list" in the Subject line[, or go to http://____ for more information].
The bracket items are optional or additional options. The [second] part refers to the complication that if you send this in your EOA but still want a separate "mailing list" note, that would be two replies they'd make. This is still the preferable way, though (I mean for the user to send a "mailing list" note separate of their EOA reply), both to simplify maintenance of the list and to make sure they're taking an explicit step to sign up, rather than making a "mumbling" reply that you might mistake as a "yes" or otherwise have to interpret.
Maybe a better phrasing of that portion would be "To sign up, please send a separate reply to me with the words, "mailing list" in the subject line..."
I'd also include brief unsubscription instructions at the bottom of each newsletter, such as "To unsubscribe, send a note to __@__.___ with "unsubscribe me" in the subject -- then unsub them in a prompt fashion as abacaxi I believe pointed out. You don't need to confirm unsubs if the mailing list is only for you to send a newsletter to others (as opposed to a discussion mailing list where members can post to the list where other members might see, in which case one member might try to unsubscribe another member as a joke or in revenge).
You should probably keep the mailing list ad very short in auction items, such as:
"Click here for information on my mailing list."
I say "for information..." instead of "to join" just so people know there will be some introductory information (perhaps the same "hook" we're discussing, or something a little longer), and not just some sign-up form. Either way, a short such blurb is better on auction pages, since who knows how eBay will react to "eBay news" or "tips" or "notification of my..." now or in the future.
Some people may also like the idea of what abacaxi also mentioned, namely being able to ask for you to inform them of when you've found more widgets. A lot of B&M antique stores have this concept, usually in the form of a spiral notebook with name, phone number, and "interested in." This would be more work to manage, however.
That too requires (or should require, anyway) honorable treatment, taking the information and using it only for that purpose, and not giving it out to anyone else, even if you think it's over finding the same thing. If you hear someone else (a friend say) has the very kind of widget someone asked you to inform them of, the better way of handling this is to find out exactly what the friend has, then tell your signee about it yourself, rather than giving your signee's information to your friend.
Okay, I've rambled on for a long time here, probably off what you were looking for, but I hope this helps.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on January 5, 2001 03:05:36 PM
BTW, I am very much anti-spam and against all non-opt-in direct marketing in general, but I simply do not consider a short (a few lines or sentences) item somewhere in an EOA, or an even shorter link blurb in an auction item to be spam or direct marketing, as long as it's handled in what I would bluntly call an ethical manner, such as I just described or as per the "Acceptable ways..." abacaxi described.
When I do see such blurbs that look like they're managed ethically, I actually find myself respecting the seller more for seeing this ("here's someone that manages a mailing list in a responsible way" ), as long as the blurb itself doesn't get overlong. If I'd be buying a lot of items from you, and would not be interested in the list, I'd learn to skip over the mention of it easily enough, and would not be the least bit annoyed, simply because at least is within the context of something I'd already be seeing, such as the auction page or the EOA, rather than something unsolicited.
I'm probably repeating myself now, though.
Whether a newsletter at all is more trouble than it's worth, as others here are suggesting, I wouldn't have the first clue.
"Would you like to join my mailing list, and receive notice of my new items before they're even listed on eBay? To join my mailing list, just reply to this email with the words, "mailing list" in the Subject line. Each month I'll send you a newsletter with buying and selling tips, eBay-related news stories, links to free software and auction resources, plus word on my latest auction offerings. This is a confidential opt-in mailing list. You may opt-out of the mailing list at any time by sending a simple email removal request. Drop me a line today to join my list!"
To me this is not a short paragraph (and obviously not a one liner).
I went to your closed auction and looked at that join mailing list link. I wouldn't find that offensive in a listing and I wouldn't find a one liner to the same effect in an email offensive provided the email was for end of auction.
I suggest you just keep your invite as simple and unobtrusive as possible. People who want to be advised of your future auctions will certainly find such a link. And people who aren't interested will probably not take great offense if you kept it short and simple.
posted on January 5, 2001 03:22:15 PM
Hi, StockTicker. Yes, a coupon is a good idea, or a discount "code" for preferred customers. I like the idea of including a hard copy product catalog, but printed catalogs are soo 20th century and I'd prefer to share documents via the Web. It is cheaper, faster, etc.
You know, guys, if you want a successful web site in its own right, you've got to get exposure for your site. When I got my freeware site listed at Yahoo, visits went from 300 per day to 700 per day. If you want customers to visit your site, you must give them a reason to come, and then a reason to come back.
I just want to add one thing. I am also on the MyBiz.com Board Of Sellers. They have offered me some stock options if I beta test their system. MyBiz offers a mailing list service as part of its package. I feel if I don't mention this now, someone else may bring it up later.
My comments regarding mailing lists and what appears to be a GAPING LOOPHOLE in eBay's policy are my own opinion. eBay is driving sales off the site! Regarding mailing/customer lists, if you've got 2000 folks who've purchased from you before, they've told you they want to know when you get new stuff, and then you don't follow up, well that's throwing business away.
posted on January 5, 2001 06:38:18 PM
Hi, GoldenSands. Another auction cottage industry!
dc9a320, that's a good idea about the double-reply to join the mailing list. No doubt even after asking you twice, there will be customers who complain they were spammed!
I have deleted your post because it contained a link to a competitive site which violates the AW Community Guidelines. It's OK to discuss site and services in a non-promotional manner but providing links or URLs is not.
We appreciate your participation at AW and thank you for your cooperation.
