posted on January 22, 2001 11:20:30 AM
I collect vintage toys. After a while doing shopping on eBay, I came to the conclusion that I really didn't needed the 4+ Price Guides I've been buying for the last few years, since the prices reflected on the guides were well above the prices being actually paid on eBay. I also notice a lot of sellers putting on their auction's description: "This item books for $xxx.xx" and then put a BIN of a fraction of that price, and even the items doesn't sell that way.
Knowing that there are Guides for an endless array of collectibles, and considering the huge impact & influence eBay had and is still having on the collectibles market, do you think Price Guides are obsolete & unnecesary?
posted on January 22, 2001 11:25:19 AM
We feel they are obsolete in the sense that sometimes they no longer reflect the "true" value (what is that anyway), but we still purchase specialized price guides for any information they may contain about a particular item.
I believe Price Guides have their place, but one should keep in mind that they are ONLY a GUIDE; values are NOT carved in stone. Fortunately, prices on good stuff goes up
They are a great learning tool to identify and get a general feel for price structure.
The true value, in the end, is pretty much set by what the BUYER is willing to pay. Thank goodness, there are bidders who understand that concept, while others think it is stupid to pay 1,000 for a vase that others would not give a nickel for..
What was the question???
Nice to see ya
******** Gosh Shosh!
posted on January 22, 2001 11:33:43 AM
Preacher4u: I find price guides are irrelevant to selling on eBay---sometimes things even go for more than "book value". But these are usually odd or strange items.
On the other hand, I find them useful for my real life store, especially down "here" where alot of my customers don't have a computer and hopefully never will have.
The price guide actually helps me to "buy" on eBay.
posted on January 22, 2001 12:02:07 PM
I collect franciscan china. For the common items, prices on ebay may go for half of "book value". I feel so sorry for the sellers who only research "book"value and start their beginning bid accordingly. One auction I observed, the seller had a covered casserole dish and started the price at $125. These items commonly go for 30-40.
However, the really rare items, like cocoa mugs, long and narrow, etc. go for way over book value.
So for the most part, I think the guides are obsolete.
Not my name on ebay.
posted on January 22, 2001 12:02:40 PM
Price guides aren't obsolete; they're still helpful in a lot of ways even if you only sell on ebay.
I do believe, though, we'll be seeing most (reputable) guides incorporating ebay stats in the pricing/availability information. Some guides already do.
posted on January 22, 2001 12:24:06 PM
I think the Guides can be helpful in determining relative merit within a category...especially if you're out on the road, away from your trusty 'puter.
If I remember (!) I take them with me on house calls and B&M auctions. You can determine what's very desirable that way...then adjust the price from your general knowledge of the market.
posted on January 22, 2001 01:20:04 PM
Price guides aren't obsolete as long as you use them correctly. They are a tool for learning and reflect usually a fairly wide range of values for most items they evaluate.
One of the problems with price guides is that users, especially those who are new to collecting or dealing, don't read the text before they start letting the dollar signs blind their thought process. Almost every guide has broad disclaimers that their price's reflect general guesstimations that factor in such things as, regional difference in the availablity of items, what dealers usually pay, market fluctuations, trends, the importance of condition, etc. Many people never read that part, but head straight to the glossy picture pages and memorize the highest quoted values.
Has Ebay made them obsolete? I don't think so, because I have sold items way above book values, and many below. Ebay has certainly changed the availability of many more common items that some Price Guides have valued much higher than they generally sell for on Ebay.
For example, Life Magazines, even the early ones from the 1930's hardly get a bid. Why? Because everybody from that era had a stack of them in their basement. Ebay flooded the market with tons of these magazines, giving buyers choices galore, even for the more hard to find and desirbable covers. Supply and demand.
I think it's also good to remember who exactly write Price Guides. Usually, it is a a collector/dealer, in association with others of that ilk. They have an interest in keeping the prices high, while making determinations of value and scarcity based often on very little real information outside of their own experiences, and usually not a great deal of cited information collected in scientific way.
This may be a little off subject, but the discussion of Price Guides reminds me of this:
Some recent postings of Thrift Shops going "Boutique" is an example of a little knowledge being better than a lot. When some schlubs who operate a thrift shop start to cull some of the perceived better items and start making pricing decisions based on Price Guides, it's always laughable. It is always amusing as they instantly become experts by the ability of opening a book, in their paranoia that someone will be appearing on the Antique's Roadshow with the 14th pressing of some scratchy Elvis LP and be told they have found valued treasure.
To the original poster who has an interest in toys: There is a fellow named Ted Hake, who writes a variety of Price Guides on Toys, and associated collectibles. He used to and may still sell on Ebay. A year ago or so, I started watching his auctions, which were numerous, and posed essentially the same question to him via e mail that you asked at the beginning of this thread. I started tracking his completed auctions, and saw that way over half of his auctions were ending without a single bidder or without winners. He wrote back and explained that Ebay, had brought tons of mid and low level collectibles to the market, and that it wasn't really a true reflection of the collectibles market. I disagreed, and posed the question to him if he would be editing his price guides based on what I suggested was the best example of a true market:what people were willing to pay on Ebay. He said it would figure into the process, but didn't seem to give it the weight I thought it deserved. Our discourse was polite and informative, but overall I thought it was the sort of answer I would expect from an interested party with a bias.
So, my conclusion is that Price Guides are good tools and informative, but need to be used in conjunction with a site like Ebay to determine a general value range, if you decide you are willing to part with something via auction, or what you should spend to acquire it. A couple more things I have found is, I have often sold items for more money than others, because in my opinion the value of a cogent description with detailed text and stated shipping cost and rules, helps to put bidders at ease. Of course good feedback helps too. But personally, I don't feel comfortable bidding on items with a one sentence description and shipping policies not defined, no matter what the pictures show. Second, a lot of getting what you want for an item is timing and patience. We have all gone to an antique shop and seen an item languish there for years, at some unpopular price. But if eventually the same items sells for that price after several years of sitting around gathering dust,it seems the value and the price realized were the mark of a patient seller, waiting for the right person to come along. Well, one can accomplish the same thing on Ebay if one wants, set some high reserve and keep flogging the same item. It's all about time and money, as usual, and how much you are willing to spend before an item becomes an albatross or you decide to have a true auction and let it ride, or dump it at a loss and chalk it up to a lesson learned.
posted on January 22, 2001 01:37:07 PM
"Some recent postings of Thrift Shops going "Boutique" is an example of a little knowledge being better than a lot. When some schlubs who operate a thrift shop start to cull some of the perceived better items and start making pricing decisions based on Price Guides, it's always laughable. "
Yup. they get blinded by what they think they know. I was in a thrift store where the owner was meticulously repricing ALL the crappy 1960-70 ashtrays and had all the "collectible" brands marked within a couple of bucks of book value.
I walked out with a WHOLE stack of Fine Woodworking and aviation magazines ... for pennies each ... and most sold for $10-30 each.
Another store owner had all the Hull and EAPG prices at book value, but a magnificent set of rare cookbooks was $30 (price on DJ = about $80, and price on search engines about $400) and I walked out with a HUGE gourmet copper bowl for $12 that is $80+ in the shops.
posted on January 22, 2001 01:47:59 PM
I buy and sell a lot of glass and pottery. All the styles, patterns, and the like can drive one crazy. I find price guides invaluable to help me determine what they are, who made them and in what time period. I also look at the book value, but have learned this is just someone's educated guess. All in all though the books help to put things in perspective when I am listing. I also use them when I am buying my favorite glass, but 95% of the time, I end up paying far more than the book value. Why? Because I want it!
posted on January 22, 2001 02:03:28 PM
I believe eBay has really impacted rarity which is one of the keys to final purchase price, on-line or RL. I, too, collect toys and have seen a dramatic drop in prices for a lot of toy items. IMHO, I do think toys are somewhat different than other collectibles. Many people will buy antique furniture, glassware, etc even though they may never have had any previous association with this item. With antique and collectible toys, however, most collectors buy what they can "relate to" or they "grew up with". I say this from experience as a seller, buyer, and show promoter. I've seen the trends shift in the last 20 years from cast iron to tin to hard plastic of the 50's to now 60's and 70's toys. I enjoy the price guides for information on a collectible but I think a few people have pointed out on this thread already that the prices are not as accurate with the advent of ebay or other internet auctions. Searching auctions ended is great but that varies also with the time of year. My 2c.
posted on January 22, 2001 03:51:13 PMHowever the most accurate info on the price something will fetch on eBay is found by doing a completed auctions search of eBay.
Well Bill, yes and no. Sometimes the price for like items in "completed" is all over the map. I think it has a lot to do with opening bid amount, reserve vs. no reserve, etc.
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I have a collection of price guides that I find myself using less and less as time goes by. I find they are useful for finding out if an item is desirable...that's about it. The prices listed aren't too useful. One item I like to look for lists for $390.00 in one book, $300.00 to 350.00 in another. OK, but I can't even get $200.00 for one. I feel sorry for a new dealer trying to rely on this book information.
For instance--I bought a record for $1.00 because I thought it might bring $5.00 or so and it did list for $5.00 to $10.00 in my record guide book. Final eBay price? $27.00. I got lucky. But it works the other way too. I've sold tons of stuff for a fraction of book.
I like to find merchandise that isn't in any books.
[ edited by loosecannon on Jan 22, 2001 04:24 PM ]
posted on January 22, 2001 04:01:09 PM
And then I've heard stories where one writer puts out a price guide with high prices to enhance the value of his vast collection. Another writes a guide with lowball figues to keep prices low.
I don't know how true it is but I've heard it discussed before.
posted on January 22, 2001 04:47:20 PM
You also have to understand that most price guides (excluding online ones) are printed at least a MONTH in advance, so usually, the prices don't reflect current trends.
Also, alot can happen within a month. Prices change, stuff get's dumped for the current fad, etc.
Price guides will stay, but with the advent of the Internet and it's Real Time Pricing, they might get booted one by one...
Of course, there are mishaps...
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on January 22, 2001 04:50:27 PM
Price guides are what they imply; a guide. Research is the key to finding your market. A guide is a place to start. Take depression glass look at a popular up to date guide and the glass will in most cases do the value indicated or higher on eBay.
Other collectibles are driven by supply and demand. And thanks to the internet some items that were scarce or hard to find become plentiful. Thus the price guide is way off or ebay is only fetching a fraction of said item's value.
Then there are items on eBay that are best sold in some other format. Such as a major auction house, one that specializes in that type of item or catagory.
Take Arts & Craft for example great bargains bought everyday on eBay, some items are only bringing a fraction of actual value. A recent example unmarked Limbert stand bought for low reserve sold for 10 times what I paid for it.
So don't discard your price guides and don't think because it is cheaper on ebay that it is written in stone.
Well of to do some snipingprice guide in hand!!!!!
posted on January 22, 2001 05:23:33 PM
I find that some of the guides my step sister uses are bald faced attempts to manipulate the market to what the persons publishing wishes it were. They are then used as a promotional tool to sell collectables as investments.
posted on January 22, 2001 05:52:39 PMAnd then I've heard stories where one writer puts out a price guide with high prices to enhance the value of his vast collection.
Ah, if only there were just one. Unfortunately, especially in new collecting categories, there's a great temptation to inflate the prices. Keep in mind that price guide authors have been accumulating all these pieces for months or even years, many with the sole purpose of writing a book (and some would say to create a market for their collection). It's in their best interest to cast their inventory in the best light possible.
Not saying that *all* authors are guilty of this; just suggesting that one consider what the motivation was in setting the prices in any guide -- actual field surveys, dealer surveys, personal opinion, etc.
IOW, use your common sense and don't rely on any ONE source to determine value -- and that includes ebay. There are just as many stories of sellers learning too late that the treasure they listed and sold for $50 on ebay would have brought triple that in any other venue.
posted on January 22, 2001 07:08:11 PM
In a pre-Ebay life, I was a professional appraiser. I can tell you that price guides run the gamut from accurate, to biased upside, and biased downside. I've seen price guides written with lowball figures, and then used by the author(and others) to acquire pieces at less than fair market value. Most of the time though, price guides are on the high side. They should be used as a tool, in conjunction with further research, including prices on Ebay. In the categories that I look at on Ebay, I do think that at the moment supply outstrips demand, and prices on completed auctions are not an accurate reflection of fair market value.
[ edited by pointy on Jan 22, 2001 07:09 PM ]
posted on January 22, 2001 10:00:34 PM
Ok everybody, Please send all your unloved and unwanted price guides to Tattoonana's House!!!
[ edited by tattoonana on Jan 22, 2001 10:01 PM ]
[ edited by tattoonana on Jan 22, 2001 10:01 PM ]