posted on January 22, 2001 06:54:59 PM
Let's say for the sake of this example that I'm selling an item I know will normally sell (on eBay) for around $300...
What's to stop me (or you) from putting up a reserve price auction set at, say... $500 - or at a price where I know the reserve will NOT be met.
Then, I contact the bidder after the auction and state "after some thought" I'm still willing to sell the item "even though your bid didn't meet my reserve price". I could also state in the auction ad that I'll consider bids under the reserve price (to encourage bids).
It seems like an easy way to avoid paying a commission on the expensive item, and it is none of eBay's business what I do after the auction in a situation like this.
Is there any reason I shouldn't use this method EVERY time I sell a single, higher priced item?
P.S. Not trying to be unethical if that's what some might consider it!? Just trying to be PROFITABLE.
posted on January 22, 2001 07:27:13 PM
Those who attempt to "beat the system" may win for a short time but in the end WILL become the big losers...
The way to "beat the system" is to learn how to play inside the system and use every option available to your utmost advantage.
After all, part of the art of selling is a numbers game...and understanding how to play that game.
"If you don't have the time to do it right ...
When will you have the time to do it over ? ..."
posted on January 22, 2001 07:31:51 PM
As a seller, my personal integrity would not allow me to cheat Ebay out of their fees after using their venue to find willing buyers. I personally place the value of my character higher than a few bucks.
As a buyer, I would not risk making a purchase in that situation, knowing that I may or may not receive the item, that if fraud were involved or if it were misrepresented, I would have no recourse, no insurance, and couldn't even leave feedback to warn others.
If you as a seller sold by this method, what would you do if someone 3000 miles away was the purchaser, they paid you electronically, then after the item was shipped, they stopped payment, did a charge-back, etc.. Are you making enough profit to pursue it through a private attorney and file suit against them? Doesn't sound like it is worth the risks either way.
posted on January 22, 2001 07:32:27 PMlufkin: But it *is* unethical. And while it might be "profitable" in the short run, you can bet your booties you'll be found out one way or another & kicked off eBay. So not profitable in the long run.
posted on January 22, 2001 07:38:31 PM
Because I voluntarily agreed to the terms of use when I joined eBay and in return they have provided me with a very profitable venue to conduct my on-line business.
posted on January 22, 2001 08:16:41 PM
I kinda like the stamps thing
--------------------------------- If I had money I'd be rich!
--------------------------------- My Bit
posted on January 22, 2001 08:49:56 PM
If you do what you are contemplating eventually you will get suspended.
1. You contact a bidder who knows that your contact is against eBay rules. The bidder forwards your email to safe harbor with full headers.
2. Another dealer doesn't like the competition from your listings, figures out what you are doing with the reserve listing scam, bids on one of your auctions with another id. The other dealer bids enough to be high bidder. You send him the email, he forwards the email with complete headers to safe harbor.
posted on January 22, 2001 08:58:13 PM
OK, now - if you're gonna get the free stamps you may as well go into your local antique shop send the clerk on a wild goose chase, grab a pricey little item and shove it in your pocket -
Now, that's pure profit!
Just wouldn't want to be in your shoes at the pearly gates ......
posted on January 22, 2001 11:37:05 PMNot trying to be unethical if that's what some might consider it!? Just trying to be PROFITABLE.
Well it is theft on your part against eBay, I'm rather narrow minded and I call theft 'unethical'. I suppose with such a 'business ethics' you could find many more ways to increase your profits. Basically if you can increase your profits then cheating is justified.
posted on January 23, 2001 12:00:57 AM
If someone acts unethically against an unethical company, do the two negatives cancel each other out? When ebaY acts unethically, everyone says - it is just ebaY being a good profitable business. When an individual acts unethically, it is stealing -hmmmmm interesting. Once upon a time, in ebaYville, it was considered GOOD MANNERS by EBAY to contact your high bidder on a reserve not met auction and sell to them if an agreement could be reached. When ebaY decided that reserve auction not mets were losing them money, they instituted the JUST A DOLLAR penalty against EVERYONE (whether you used reserves properly or not) to PAY for all those off ebaY deals. Until they remove the reserve fee, we are PAYING to ALLOW what is suggested in this thread - and if you are PAYING for this service, how can it even be considered unethical or against the rules by ebaY???
By the way, I have never done what is suggested in this thread, purposely inflating a reserve so the item would NOT meet reserve, and then contacting the high bidder and selling it - BUT, I do believe that the more ebaY does to decimate the few remaining shreds of "community" left, the more likely people will consider ebaY "just a business" and all is fair in business and profitability. It is not unreasonable for folks who feel that ebaY has cheated them - therefore there is nothing wrong with cheating ebaY. I feel ebaY is acting in a way that will make "reasonable" people (not the small percentage of scammers, grifters or bottom feeders) use this kind of activity more and more, and be able to reasonably justify it, hey they are just businesses trying to maintain their profitability!!!
-Rosalinda
posted on January 23, 2001 12:21:15 AM
I wouldn't dream of conducting business like that!!!
But if you're looking at unethical ways to cut back on your fees~~why stop at the FVF. Just list the item with a pic in one of your other "legit" auctions. Put something like this item is not included in this auction; however, I will sell it for any offer over $XYZ~~contact me for more info. You could put say five extra "not included items" in every legit auction and save $1.50++ in listing fees alone not to mention reserve fees. Also if you're worried with the increased postal rates, charge customers for priority, turn the priority boxes inside out and ship collectables book rate. Hope these ideas help you to become more profitable.
posted on January 23, 2001 04:36:31 AM
lufkin -
Aside from the knowledge that eBay has the ability to spot sellers whose items seldom or NEVER make reserve and whose items NEVER seem to get relisted (it's called a "database query" and would take me about three minutes to write one that could pick out ALL unsold items with a reserve over $xxx, and from that list pick all sellers who had more than X% listings with unmet reserves over the past X months). Then you pull all the account activity for those sellers for an up close and personal examination.
And, what if I want to be more "profitable", how about I make a deal with you on this high priced item that did not make reserve ... and do a charge back claiming that you shipped a brick in the box.
Then I take the item to a local shop and place it on consignment. Really profitable for me, and you have ZERO help from eBay.
posted on January 23, 2001 07:24:38 AM
Seriously folks, if I list an item with a reserve to protect my investment and cover my insertion and FVF and the item doesn't sell, then I relist it with a slightly lower reserve and it still doesn't sell...at this point ebay has collected two insertion fees and two reserve auctions fees. Now a customer contacts me and really wants the item and feels the reserve is fair ebay says I can't sell to him directly?? They have their money and I have zip!! I already paid the price. Do you call that fair?
Yes, yes I know, today I can relist with a BIN and heads up the potential buyer...but egreed now gets a third insertion fee and FVF and they are not going to refund me one penny on the unsuccessful auctions!
Zilvy..."I started with nothing and egreed plans to keep it that way"
[ edited by Zilvy on Jan 23, 2001 07:26 AM ]
posted on January 23, 2001 08:47:07 AM
From what I understand of eBay's current fee avoidance rules, if the high bidder contacts the seller after a "reserve not met" auction ends, it's OK. However, the seller is not allowed to contact the high bidder in a "reserve not met" auction, or to contact the underbidders of any other type of auction, or to contact the underbidders of another seller's auction. This is referred to as spamming, bottom feeding, etc. and can get a seller thrown off eBay.
posted on January 23, 2001 09:11:33 AM
Zilvy said:
***
Seriously folks, if I list an item with a reserve to protect my investment and cover my insertion and FVF and the item doesn't sell, then I relist it with a slightly lower reserve and it still doesn't sell...at this point ebay has collected two insertion fees and two reserve auctions fees. Now a customer contacts me and really wants the item and feels the reserve is fair ebay says I can't sell to him directly??
***
Well, that's an entirely different situation than what lufkin is suggesting. In your scenario, you list in good faith with intent to sell-- and you do so twice. You don't contact the underbidder, the underbidder contacts you.
Contrast that with the scheme that lufkin has proposed-- where his intent is to set the reserve so high that it WON'T be met, purposefully intending to defraud eBay of their Final Value fees-- and he contacts the underbidder:
From lufkin's post:
****
What's to stop me (or you) from putting up a reserve price auction set at, say... $500 - or at a price where I know the reserve will NOT be met.
Then, I contact the bidder after the auction and state "after some thought" I'm still willing to sell the item "even though your bid didn't meet my reserve price". I could also state in the auction ad that I'll consider bids under the reserve price (to encourage bids).
It seems like an easy way to avoid paying a commission on the expensive item, and it is none of eBay's business what I do after the auction in a situation like this.
Is there any reason I shouldn't use this method EVERY time I sell a single, higher priced item?
posted on January 23, 2001 09:21:46 AM
Am I the only one who finds it extremely coincidental that "lufkin," a new poster, begins two threads, within an hour of eachother, both having to do with two current ebay hot-button issues...those being spam and fee avoidance?
posted on January 23, 2001 09:38:02 AM
OK, let me play devil's advocate here. I would NEVER EVER condone doing what lufkin suggested, but I think I see his point. It always bothers me when someone brings something like this up and then the replies start with "sympathy for poor Ebay". "Wouldn't want to cheat Ebay" they all say. And neither would I. The fact of the matter is that all Ebay cares about is making a profit, period. But yet when it comes to us lowly sellers making a profit (in a rightful way) we are supposed to feel bad about it. I agree that nobody should cheat the system. I don't cheat the system, never had. But I think that we should be "critical" of the system or else it will just keep growing and growing with more rules be added until you can do nothing. Ebay is a wonderful site, my favorite site in fact! But it is also a monopoly and we should be very careful about how we approach it. My .02.
In response to rnrgroup's assertion that, perhaps, two wrongs cancel each other out...Well, ebay made it's rules and those of us who choose to participate are subject to those rules. It's like going over to someone's nonsmoking house and saying "well, he's an idiot, so why can't I smoke?" Well, it's HIS house and his rules. You don't have to come over!
Just a thought...
[ edited by sharkbaby on Jan 23, 2001 09:49 AM ]
[ edited by sharkbaby on Jan 23, 2001 09:55 AM ]
posted on January 23, 2001 09:54:26 AM
Musicman, I agree with you wholeheartedly! Let's face it, ebaY is making money hand over fist....good for them. As long as they support the seller's who are paying the bills. But, as you stated they are a monopoly in that the competition doesn't amount to much of anything and they do keep on keepin on. I haven't had a full 7 day auction in a long time due to outages, downtime, and now that they are rolling out price increases I'd like to see something done for the Sellers. And you can bet your boots if I am contacted after an auction I will determin if I sell the item outright or not. Ebay, I'll play by the rules....but you don't own my soul or put the bread on my table, or pay my mortgage...I do. Whether I use ebay, shows, shops or whatever venue I choose. I pay my dues but don't restrict my trade!!
Zilvy... I'm gonna get the right face yet!!
[ edited by Zilvy on Jan 23, 2001 09:56 AM ]
[ edited by Zilvy on Jan 23, 2001 09:57 AM ]
I'm gonna get the right face yet!!