posted on March 12, 2001 12:10:14 PM
OK here is the deal. I am Native American and recieved an email from a fellow Tennessee Native American community member about an Ebay auction. In the email the auction number and title and description were copy and pasted and sent to me. This auction was for an actual Indian skull supposedly of course and from Tenn.
So everyone contacted ebay and at first they said it was legal but after being houndeed they gave in and ended the auciton.
For some reason nobody got the sellers name.
Now we are trying to find this seller. Some of them got the auction ended before I had a chance to bid and win this item to return it to its rightful place.
I have checked completed and active auctions for this auction number with nothing coming up.
How can I find it? Will Ebay tell me who the seller was?
If the seller or anayone who knows the person is reading this, there is no legal thing going on here. We would just like to purchase the item.
I don't know what else to do this is very important to us and I think that folks were angry and jumped to quickly and we may never find it now!!!
posted on March 12, 2001 12:21:53 PM
I think you should of bid and then you wouldn't of had this problem, but now you want to do an "off" site sale. LOL
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on March 12, 2001 12:28:15 PM
If you still have the auction number even though it's ended you should be able to look it up, then look up the seller.
You could then pull his contact information and call him up.
You may also check into the Federal law on this as well as the Tribal council to see how best this may be done.
Though I disagree with selling this kind of artifact, it may have been easier to do as Twelvepole said.
Hindsight is 20/20
If it were my item, I would be more comfortable selling it to an official representative rather than some unknown individual.
posted on March 12, 2001 12:51:34 PM
When eBay NUKES an auction, it disappears from their database, and there is no way to retrieve the auction # or info. Even if you have the auction #, it will take you to a page that states this auction no longer exists in the database.
posted on March 12, 2001 01:06:39 PM
I don't know why they would argue - seems that that would violate the selling of body parts rule. I never heard anything to indicate it was soft tissue only that was forbidden.
posted on March 12, 2001 01:38:54 PM
At first Ebay said that It was not a violation of their policy because the seller stated in the auction that this was for Educational purposes only. Can you believe that? If only Dahmer had found Ebay he could have made a fortune with that little sentence for Educational purposes only.
Several members of our organiztion were involved in this so the auction was bunted before i could get to it. All Correspondance between those people and Ebay are forwarded to me.
We will pay an huge amount of money to get this item back to its home. Unfortunately we may not be able to do that now.
Your right hindsight is 20/20
Even tho it would have felt eeery to win an auction for a human head. eewww I would have won it no matter what.
I couldn't even fathom listing something like that.
posted on March 12, 2001 01:50:36 PM
Culture: Am Indian Skull; Origen: Tennessee, USA;
Circa: Approx.200 yrs.This is an uncut skull. The head and jaw
are separated. The skull has 5 teeth.This skull is for MEDICAL
and EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY!!You are bidding on this item with
the intention of using the item in this manor. Please email me
with any questions PRIOR to bidding.Payment is due within 10
days of auction close, If not received bythen I will relist my
item.I accept Paypal(verified only), Billpoint and Money
Orders.No Checks. I will NOT ship internationally for this
item.Winner
pays $30 special handling,shipping and insurance.I am also also
including a display case with the skull. Thank you and Good
Luck."
This is from the auction descrip..part of it
and some people complain about their outrageous shipping charges LOL
posted on March 12, 2001 01:59:11 PM
It did say for educational purposes, I don't know, where do anthropolgists get their 'human parts' to study. They do study
bones and such, and this one was 200 years old. It also may not have originated in TN.
The 'owner'? of this could have gotten it there, but who knows who had it before, or maybe this seller is a anthropologist? [email protected]
posted on March 12, 2001 02:10:04 PM
Well,
since you have the wording you could pick a few phrases and put them in the search engine with quotation marks
for example
"blah blah blah"
or
you could have the Tribal authorities send ebay a letter asking them for the information, perhaps they could forward it to the seller. If you explain your purposes then they might help.
Though, coming from an individual they might be leary, coming from an organization which could offer a "legitimate" reason (quotes because as an individual you may be legit, but not recognized as a proper representative to aquire this artifact)
also call your local University etc.
I was hiking around Rattlesnake lake here in King County WA and since the lake is low, I found an old submerged logging road and settlement (late 19th century) when I finally got in touch with the state archeologist he was glad that I 1) didn't grab anything and 2) brought it to his attention.
Of all the folks that have been hiking around the lake I was the only one to call. I sadden to think of folks scavenging the site for bones, dishes etc
It may be pretty important to find the right "home" for him.
posted on March 12, 2001 04:53:06 PM
As a native Tennessean, I just wanted to point out the skull only had 5 teeth. That definitely makes it from Alabama or possibly Kentucky.
posted on March 12, 2001 06:40:52 PM
Just because they SAY it is a 200yo Native American skull, what could possibly PROVE that it is such??
Does it come with a COA?? Do ya take it down to the neighborhood CVS for a Carbon13-dating? Could just as likely have been ole dead Aunt Molly from Topeka!
posted on March 12, 2001 08:16:07 PM
Dixiebee , LOL Thats right Gosh darn it !!!
Tom, I tell you that is one of my concerns as to its authenticity but to the sellers credit he is offering some papers dating it or whatever. I don't know a whole lot about this subject.
It would bite to pay alot of money for it and then 30 dollars to ship and its misrepresented. It would also hurt to lose it and it be the real deal.
On a lighter note what would put on the insurance form?
Angel
Edited to add to Capriole, My father is the Chief of our tribe. They might listen to him ? Who knows.
Also to add isn't it against Ebay rules to auction off animal skins and Ivory tusks?
How ironic is that !!!
[ edited by angelstruck on Mar 12, 2001 08:21 PM ]
eBay will not give out another users information, and your father being a Tribal Chief will make no difference whatsoever.
The auction was ended, and that's the end of that.
Not trying to burst your bubble, but you might as well write this one off.
FYI - Here's the official rule by eBay.
Human Parts and Remains
Humans, the human body or any human body parts may not be listed on eBay. Examples of
prohibited items include, but are not limited to: organs, bone, blood, waste, sperm, and eggs. You may not include such items as a gift, prize or giveaway in connection with an item listed on eBay. Items that contain human hair (e.g., lockets) as well as skulls and skeletons that are used for educational purposes may be listed on eBay.
posted on March 13, 2001 04:53:46 AM
They've already ended the auction, but I think that someone needs to point out to Ebay that the auction definitely violated the NAGPRA law, educational purposes or not.
NAGPRA = Native American Graves Protection Repatriation Act, or something like that. Remember, the Kennewick man? He was going to be used "for educational purposes", but they were forced to turn him over to local tribes for reburial...
I doubt that Ebay will turn over much information about the seller without a court order, but there are grounds for a case here, if the tribal leaders choose to pursue it...
You may be correct? If things had been handled differently & law enforcement had been brought in, eBay would have been forced to hand over all the particulars they had on the seller & the item in question. At this point it's going to be very difficult to get anything from them, unless of course a court order is issued. A lesson learned for the next time something like this shows up on eBay.
posted on March 13, 2001 08:36:59 AM
pqvarus-and did you hear the latest on the Kennewick Man? He was proven NOT to be Native American, rather 'Anglo Saxon' decent.
And the Indians up here don't want him any longer......
So who's to tell if this skull is Native American?
posted on March 13, 2001 09:17:09 AM
Reddeer, Capriole and all others thanks for the great advice and disscusion.
I think this may be something i just better stay out of.
This is a good topic for future auctions. I find it weird that animals are so protected but humans are not? Just because you say the auction is Educational purposes. C'mon give me a break. Like that seller wasn't in it for the cash.. Puleeeezzee.
Can you imagine the spouse of the person winning this auction "Hey honey what did you buy" "Oh just a human skull"
This situation does have some comedic value.
Anyway I will update everyone as to what happens.
Thanks for all the responces
posted on March 13, 2001 09:29:22 AM
reddeer-ok it was advertised as being Native American. So then, is it legal for a '200 yr old skull' (or older) to be auctioned or sold on ebay, as non Native American?
I've looked thru catagories and there are bones and 'artifacts' being sold. Some animal of course, where is the line drawn?
on 50 yr old animal bones, 100 yr old... I don't get it. Wouldn't orginizations, like PETA be upset then. I think she should have bid when she got the information, she had said she would have, and she also said ebay said it was legal at first, until they were 'hounded' by her fellow NA community.
Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with what the Native American community does, or has rights to, my adult children are half Cherokee, their dad is full. They are not into it, they know who they are, but choose so far, not to pursue their history, I've never stopped them. [email protected]
That would depend on what county the item is being exported from, and imported into, and also the laws of the USA.
eBay can of course add their own rules & regs where & when they see fit, but from a legal standpoint they cannot allow illegal items to be sold, if those items are indeed brought to their attention.
Please keep in mind that many of the folks working in Safe Harbour are wet behind the ear employees, who beyond a simple cut & paste response don't have the slightest clue what can, and what cannot be legally sold on their site.
Most likely what occured in this instance is that the once this complaint was reviewed by a senior staff member, or their legal dept, they realized it was illegal & ended the auction, and warned the seller.
I live in Canada, and I'm not current on the laws regarding items such as this in the USA.
Canada goes to great lengths to protect their cultural property from being exported out of the country, but there are thousands of sellers on eBay that have no idea they are breaking a Federal law when exporting certain items. I see numerous items each & every week that would be closed down in a heartbeat if I was to generate a complaint to the eBay legal dept.
