posted on March 14, 2001 02:16:11 PM
As a seller I always wait to post feedback for the buyer until after he/she either 1) leaves me feedback, or 2) emails me to say that everything arrived ok.
In my email notification to the buyer that his/her item has been shipped I always state something like:
"Please let me know when your item arrives so I will know that everything is ok. As soon as I hear back from you that you received it and that everything is ok, I will leave positive feedback for you on ebay."
Today I got an email from a buyer who had received his item. He stated, "Magazine arrived ok, I will post feedback later."
He then added these words: (the grammar and spelling are his, not mine.)
"Oh, BTW.....Your feedback is susposed to be based on how well I do in contacting you and paying, not on well I'm pleased or how well the USPS did in getting item to me. After delivery feedback is for me to tell how well you held up your end of the deal and how pleased I am."
****************
While I appreciated the advice, here was my reply:
"Glad you received the magazine ok! Thanks for your input about feedback, though I'm not really sure I follow why you stated this.
I'm guessing it has to do with my chosen timing for leaving feedback as a seller? (Please correct me if I'm mistaken) So, I'll try to explain what I meant and why I choose to do feedback this way.
When I buy an item on ebay, I always leave feedback after I receive the item in the mail. If it arrives in good shape, packed well, timely, damaged, etc. all these things are taken into consideration. If there is a damage problem I contact the seller to see if we can arrange for compensation, or if I paid for insurance what we need to do to make a claim etc. I give the seller the chance to provide "customer service" before I make my final judgement and leave feedback.
But if everything is ok when the item arrives I leave immediate feedback.
When I sell an item, I wait to post feedback until the buyer has either 1) left positive feedback for me, or 2) contacted me by email to express that everything was fine with the transaction.
My reasons for this are as follows:
1) Some buyers don't leave any feedback, so there is no way for me to know of their satisfaction or dissatisfaction. If I leave immediate feedback after they contact me and pay, I am not able to factor in how they handled any post sale issues (ie. unreasonable requests about a collectible item's condition, etc.) This is especially a problem in the area of sports cards, which I deal with quite often. The post sale problems often occur when a buyer disagrees with the way you described the condition of the card in your auction. This can be true for Earnhardt magazines as well, as one buyer contacted me just last night to complain that there was a small "fold" in the magazine that I did not tell him about up front, and he was disappointed. I offered him a full refund, yet he still implied that I had "pulled a fast one" on him. I certainly did not do that intentionally!!
2) When I first started selling, I left feedback as soon as I received a buyer's payment. I agreed at that time with your philosophy that I was just rating a buyer's response time and promptness in paying. Boy was that a mistake!!! One buyer contacted me immediately, paid promptly, and so I left glowing immediate feedback! After the sale when the buyer became very unreasonable and difficult to work with, I was left with few options. He used the fact that he hadn't left feedback for me yet to hold me "hostage" in the deal until I finally had to return his money and pay to have the item shipped back to me at my expense...in my opinion all because he had found the item cheaper somewhere else and no longer wanted to honor his bid. My opinoion on his feedback was definately different after all this than it was at the time I actually posted it for him.
If I left feedback based only on the first half of the transaction, what would I do if a buyer received his item and was so upset that he bombed my feedback, filed unwarranted fraud charges against me and got me suspended from ebay, searched ebay for my contact info, found my address, drove to my house, beat up my wife over it, burned my house to the ground etc., etc. (That would certainly be extreme, but you see the point I'm making.) Feedback is about more than just whether someone emailed and sent payment in a timely manner.
3) If the feedback I leave is only supposed to be based on how well a buyer contacts and pays, and not on the job the USPS did etc., does that mean that if the item got lost in the mail, or damaged in transit etc. and I refused to give a refund that most buyers would leave negative feedback for the USPS? Nope...the buyer would leave negative feedback for the seller unless he got his money back. There are many factors to consider in feedback, not just contact and payment.
So, I sincerely apologize if you think I have done something improper by stating in my email that I will post feedback for you after you let me know that everything is ok (in other words...that you are satisfied with the item and my service) but for me I think that is the only way to be fair to everybody.
Since you have emailed me back and expressed that everything is ok, I will leave positive feedback for you now! If you feel that I didn't understand the meaning of your comments to me about feedback, please email me to let me know what you meant.
Thank you very much for the smooth transaction, and have a great day!!!"
*****************
So, what do you think, oh gurus of all things ebay? What's your perspective on feedback and when is the appropriate time to leave it, and what is it "susposed" to cover?
posted on March 14, 2001 02:32:46 PM
I think I would have hit reply, written thank you for letting me know the item arrived safely, hit send, then delete the original message, and move on.
posted on March 14, 2001 02:43:29 PM
I agree with your explanation of why you post feedback after the sale is FINAL.....I also sell on ebay and in a perfect world, you could post feedback immediately upon receiving payment based on how quickly they paid, BUT we all know we don't live in a perfect world and posting prematurely can be used as unfair leverage..........so I also handle my feedback this way also. Actually I insert a pre-printed thank you in each of my packages I mail out that gives a thank you to my buyers for being one of my auction winners and then I request that they leave feedback for me when they receive their item so that will be my notice that they did receive it OK and then I also post for them at that time. This keeps me from having to email and inquire if package arrives and keeps them from having to email me also. Seems to work well and I have more feedback get posted this way also.
posted on March 14, 2001 02:54:01 PM
I disagree. I buy & sell about equally on ebay. Although I understand your policy, I think it is holding the buyer's feedback hostage. You are rating them based on how good a buyer they are -- communication, speed of payment, etc. I've had sellers do exactly what you do -- I paid them immediately, etc. and after several months of trouble (getting ripped off) I left negative feedback -- only to get RETALIATORY neg feedback. This is ridiculous, since all my obligations as a buyer were met. Feedback should not be "reserved" until you're convinced the buyer isn't going to neg you -- it should be left if the buyer did a good job "buying."
posted on March 14, 2001 03:03:00 PM
Feedback should reflect the entire transaction, not just one small part of it (timely payment). There is a reason that it's called transactional feedback.
The buyer's responsibility doesn't end with timely payment. She also has a responsibility to work with the seller in good faith to resolve any problems that may arise.
As a seller, while knowing how quickly a buyer pays is important, knowing how the bidder works with sellers to resolve problems is even more important.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't leave feedback first. I routinely leave feedback first in my transactions. But I ONLY leave feedback after the transaction is completed. When is the transaction completed? When the buyer tells me she is happy with the transaction, or after she has given me a reasonable opportunity to make her happy with the transaction.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Mar 14, 2001 03:04 PM ]
posted on March 14, 2001 04:08:56 PM
Although your reasoning is sound I think it is the wrong approach. You are offending some customers and probably getting less feedback because of it. You are just afraid that if you leave feedback first you will have no recourse. That a buyer will be less likely to neg you if you haven't left feedback for them first. You think as a buyer I don't know what you are doing? You have no confidence in the items you are selling. The buyer has enough trust in you to send you payment first not knowing if they will ever see their item. Any idiot buyer can neg you anytime even if you do everything right.
As a seller I send a thank you note along stating that I have already given them positive feedback and if they are happy they are welcome to do the same. If they do have a problem they can just let me know and I will do everything to make it right.
If a buyer receives an item and is upset, they will react more positively to the message I'm sending then your veiled threat of feedback retaliation. If you represented the items correctly you have nothing to worry about. Even if the buyer is a jerk.
No one is going to neg you if you sent them a fairly represented item. If you offer a full refund + all shipping costs once they return the item to you either you will see that you made a mistake and send them all of the money back they are out and you will learn a lesson or you will get the item back and realize they are pulling a fast one on you and now you have their money and they have nothing. Then you would be justified in deducting shipping, ebay fees etc. And if someone gives me a negative before I had a chance to correct it there is not going to be any refund.
If you do everything right you will not be negged and if you do run into a moron out there who wants to neg you no matter what you are still better off trying to defuse the situation rather then hanging a feedback war over their head.
I have had over 1500 transactions with no negatives, yet. Selling vintage collectibles. The half dozen or so buyers who have had a problem received a full refund + all shipping costs immed. and an apology. Usually it was something that I overlooked. When they see my feedback or they don't have to wait for thier check to clear or that feedback is given when it is deserved they see that I am showing trust in them and most people will act in kind.
Buyers come back to my auctions again and again because they know they will get a good fair deal. If you want to really protect yourself you could consider these policies;
Accept only Money orders or cash. List all items sold "as is" Threaten negative feedback in your ads, No refunds,Checks held for 30 days, No bidders with feedback under 10,etc.
posted on March 14, 2001 04:11:28 PM
kaneen,
There is nothing wrong with waiting to leave feedback. But the way you have it phrased in your email does sound like "feedback hostage".
You write As soon as I hear back from you that you received it and that everything is ok, I will leave positive feedback for you on ebay."
Rephrasing it would help. I really don't have any ideas with what, maybe something like:
"Let me know when you get it, my policy is to leave feedback after the package arrives safely. "
posted on March 14, 2001 05:03:33 PM
I agree that the feedback should not be left upon receiving payment.
I received a check a week ago, deposited it, sent the item, and guess what??? The buyer stopped payment on the check. I am left with a $6.00 fee from the bank for the returned check, no item since it was already sent, and no money for the item itself.
I left positive feedback for this person upon arrival of their check. Now, I am screwed as are the rest of the Ebay community, because this person already has their glowing feedback from me and the item, and will more than likely do this to someone else in the near future.
If I had not been so hasty to leave the positive feedback, I could have warned alot of people about this person with their feedback.
Feedback can work to your advantage and you can also get burned. I have learned the hard way.
posted on March 14, 2001 05:26:02 PM
I agree with SMW. If the customer is so concerned with their own feedback, let them leave feedback first. There are enough free tools that leave reciprocal positive feedback, that this should now be accepted as the norm.
Buyers who demand feedback first, citing hostage feedback, just want a way they can neg without fear of retaliation.
Assuming the transaction went smoothly, why should the buyer care about leaving feedback first?
Don't waste your time writing a three-page explanation of your feedback policies. If a buyer suspects some cynical reason that you are withholding feedback, no explanation will suffice. State your policy and move on.
Once the package arrives, the buyer can verify:
1) The seller accurately described the item
2) The seller processed payment and shipped in a timely manner
3) The seller's emails were polite and friendly
4) The seller has fulfilled their part of the transaction
Buyers, if you're not prepared to leave feedback after that, but instead still demand the option to leave negative feedback without reciprocation, you're being unreasonable.
It is the seller's responsibility to handle after-the-sale support. The seller should wait until the buyer signals he is satisfied, before leaving final feedback.
posted on March 14, 2001 05:40:21 PM
Feedback is to tell other ebayers about the total transaction.
As a seller I would like to know that..
1) the buyer has bounced a check and did not make it good
2) buyer has switched the item and returned their own damaged item instead of the seller's undamaged item
3) buyer refuses to file the insurance claim form when the item was insured
4) buyer refuses to return item before a refund is issued
5)Buyer has sent threatening or vulger emails to seller after the item was sent
6) buyer was so impatient that they expected the item to arrive "the day before it was mailed"
7)buyer became harrassing and unreasonable (remember Execgirl's t-shirt buyer?)
8)buyer stopped payment on a check after the item was mailed but before they recieved the item
9) buyer did a chargeback for "non-reciept" of merchandise when there is proof of delivery
10) buyer used a stolen credit card through a payment service (paypal, etc) which wasn't discovered UNTIL AFTER item was sent
11) Buyer filed a false fraud report
As a seller, I cannot know any of this about a buyer if ALL the other sellers leave feedback when payment was recieved. And I will probably never know if the only place a seller can give this information is as a response to the negative the buyer might give him.
Leaving feedback at the END of a transaction is NOT holding feedback hostage.
posted on March 14, 2001 06:59:34 PM
I've been selling 3+ years, over 2,500 positives (3 negatives early in my "career" which could have been prevented if I had handled the situations better). I always leave positive feedback when payment is received & put a note in each package (50 a week) with the usual "thank you" stuff. Almost everyone leaves me positive feedback & the few who don't - I don't worry about it. But, that's just my "routine" & it's worked very well for me. I think sellers should do what works for them.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:08:32 PM
As a buyer, I expect feedback to be left after my payment has successfully been received by the seller and the item shipped. If I were to send a check, I would expect the feedback to be left once it clears and the item ships.
As a seller, I leave feedback when the item ships. That means all payments have cleared the bank. If there are problems with the items, whether legitmate or not, they will be resolved professionally and amicably.
dubyasdaman wrote:
The buyer's responsibility doesn't end with timely payment. She(or he) also has a responsibility to work with the seller in good faith to resolve any problems that may arise
This is totally incorrect. It is the seller's responsiblilty to resolve any problems that may arise. Dealing with the bad apples is part of any business. If you offend your legimate customers, you won't have any customers to worry about.
You would definetly not see any of my bids on any of your items in the future if you do not leave feedback after I have completely fulfilled my end of the bargain by sending payment.
I do believe the only reason for withholding feedback is to retaliate in the event of a negative by the buyer. Have your payment in hand before shipping anything. Respond professionally to any problems, whether legitimate or not. Leave feedback for your buyers after payment has been received successfully. Nuff said.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:10:00 PM
Hi Kaneen! I too do my "feedbacks" the same as you. However, I probably end up hurting myself because of it. I don't like to give feedback until I know the buyer has received their mdse. and received it in good condition (if not, then I have to work with that). I too expect, but don't always get a response from them that "Yes" they've received the item and now will give me good feedback. I have sold many, many more items on eBay (and YooHoo too) than what my feedbacks show. It would be great if I had all positives for all the items I have sold, but that's not living in the real world and for right now - I will proceed on like I have been. It'll just take me longer to get my pretty little different colored stars!
posted on March 14, 2001 07:23:17 PM
All the high feedback sellers I have ever dealt with leave feedback on receipt of payment or soon after. So do the couple or so in this thread.
Maybe the truly successful sellers are too busy making $$$$$ to play games with their customers.
Kaneen, please tell me why you need to spend 20 minutes writing to the customer explaining your feedback policy. Is it that important that your customer is made to agree with you?
Petty sellers make petty buyers.
When I was 20, I worked in a clothing store, and they had a list behind the service counter named "Bad customers". This is people that return too much, give too much attitude, etc. A new manager came in, saw the list, and tore it up saying "There is no such thing as a bad customer". Then and now, she is right.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:31:45 PM
dschoone...how does a seller solve professionally and amicably a transaction where the buyer used a stolen credit card? Or one where the buyer pulls a switcheroo? Or one where the buyer refuses to send the item back so the seller can issue a refund? Or when the buyer refuses to do his part in filing an insurance claim?
I think your statement that "the only reason for withholding feedback is to retaliate in the event of a negative by the buyer" is way to broad. In the situations I outlined in my other posts I doubt if the seller is waiting to retaliate...rather, they will probably be the one to leave the negative FIRST.
By the way...there are a lot of sellers, me included, who do not wait for the check to clear before they ship...and we do it because we feel that holding the check is offensive to our legitimate customers
posted on March 14, 2001 07:34:13 PM
I am entirely confused as to what my receiving the item in good or bad condition has to do with anything.
If it is in bad condition and it appears that the post office damaged it, I sure hope that I paid you for insurance. If it is different than in the description, than I will return it. If I decide that I want to replace it with a different item and return it to you, well there are laws for that.
The buyer pays his money to you and expects to receive his feedback, as he has completed his end of the bargain. It is your responsiblilty to get the item to him as described in the auction.
If there are problems with the item and you do not settle the transaction to the liking of the buyer, it is their right to leave you a negative. And that's exactly what you were waiting for, now isn't it. Now you can retaliate.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:45:08 PM
Amy, Call the police. Your assumption is based on those intent on breaking the law. If you can't afford any of these types of losses, you better find a day job
mrpotatohead, buyers do expect to receive feedback, nowhere does it say it is mandatory. It is a good idea if you like returning buyers. I won't be one of them.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:46:06 PM
I too leave feedback when I receive payment, or payment clears (in the case of checks). I can see the issue where the buyer feels like they are being held hostage if feedback is posted after the item received.
On the other hand, feedback is about the whole transaction, and if a bidder asks for a refund, this becomes part of the transaction. In this case, I can understand why a seller would wait.
As a seller I sometimes feel like the hostage when I leave feedback first. I have over 900 + and one negative. The negative was from a bidder from another country who bid but didn't complete transaction. I mailed 3 emails, the NPBA, then the credit. When I posted negative feedback is was stated something like, "Auction ended 55 days ago. Payment not received, no response to emails."
Well they blasted me with something like, "Bad seller, unfriendly emails, NOT one of ebay's finest."
They had a rating of 6! They eventually ended up multiple negs and were NARU'ed.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:50:39 PM
"If I decide that I want to replace it with a different item and return it to you, well there are laws for that."
Excuse me???? You receive the item you bid on in the condition described, and you "decide to replace it with a different item" and I'm supposed to take it back?? I don't think so.
I agree with your buyer. If I do my part and send my payment immediately, I feel I've done my job and I deserve some good feedback. If the seller is not polite enough to rate me as a buyer, I do not rate my seller either.
As a seller, I leave feedback as soon as payment is received. As a buyer, I leave FB only if seller did the same for me.
And, no I don't believe FB is mandatory, but it is polite.
I also use delivery confirmation so I know package has been received.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:56:23 PM
joanne, someone mentioned that previously in this thread, something about baseball cards being switched. I didn't say you had to accept it. That is just another problem you have to deal with.
Still, what does leaving a feedback for me upon proper payment for all we honest buyers have to do with receiving the item in good or bad condition.
posted on March 14, 2001 08:00:47 PM
Sellers that require my email assuring them of my satisfaction don't get feedback, not positive feedback anyway. I've trusted the seller with my payment, I think they should show some trust also.
Since most of my transactions as a buyer result in a feedback exchange it would seem most sellers leave feedback on receipt of payment. In my case I'd say 2/3rds of the sellers have left feedback on receipt of payment.
As a seller receipt of payment generates a positive feedback. I don't require the buyer to be satisfied.
posted on March 14, 2001 08:10:18 PM
Dschone...you are generalizing way to much. Retaliation is not necessarily the reason some sellers wait to leave feedback. You need to listen to what those sellers are saying and try to understand their position.
The sellers who are waiting until the transaction is completely over believe that feedback should include the TOTAL transaction. There is more to know than just "did the buyer pay, did the seller ship?". How both the buyer and seller conduct themselves THROUGHOUT the transaction is important to other community members. And since BOTH members should be giving their impression of the transaction the fact that one person (either the buyer OR the seller) leaves negative feedback first does not mean the other persons later leaving negative feedback is retalitory...it just means that the other person was also not happy with the transaction. And the reason they were not happy with the transaction could be because the other party to the transaction left what they considered an unjustified negative. Each person has a right to leave feedback that represents their view of the transaction...no matter at what point they leave that feedback (even if the feedback is left AFTER they recieved a negative).
The first person to leave negative feedback is not always the person who is in the right...they were just quicker to leave negative feedback.
If a buyer turns out to be a PITA AFTER payment was recieved, the seller should have the opportunity to let the other community members know this fact. Since we currently only have the ability to leave one feedback only, some sellers want to have the ability to use that "single feedback" AFTER they know the transaction has been complete. That doesn't make them bad sellers or mean they have lousy customer service skills, or that they are not doing well on ebay...it just means they see things differently than you do.
Be tolerant of the fact that every seller has a right to handle his business in a way that is most comfortable for him. If you don't like the way a certain seller conducts his business then avoid that seller...but realize he DOES have the right to do it HIS way.
There ARE NO EBAY RULES that says a seller MUST leave feedback when payment is recieved...nor is it even a "common business practice" that could be seen as a defacto "rule".
