posted on March 28, 2001 01:37:34 PM
I just downloade eSafe2Bid program that is advertised on the AuctionWatch home page.
This program reports false shill warnings on almost every seller I check. I even received a shill warning on my own Ebay ID. A low feedback bidder bid on 4 of our many auctions and won three of them. Sounds like a shill to me NOT!
I am concerned about this program for two reasons. First it is bad for business when people see SHILL WARNINGS when checking your user ID and when the posse (ebay dectives) get their hands on this program it will open a whole can of worms.
I checked the ID of a high volume seller and there was many shill warnings. Strangely enough this seller has sold hundreds of items for minimum bid $1. Their feedback isn't the greatest but I know for a fact that they don't shill.
You might want to check your own auctions. I have a feeling you might be surprised at what you find and you probably won't like it.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Mar 28, 2001 01:42 PM ]
posted on March 28, 2001 01:47:01 PM
I took a look at the home page for this program when I first noticed the ad on AW. I was shocked. Their claims are completely ridiculous. There is NO WAY a ten dollar piece of software can do what they claim. There are too many variables that you have to consider when you try to verify shilling.
The originator of this thread is trying to make a big deal of nothing because his ID has a single warning with eSafe2Bid. He emailed me this morning saying he was going to post everywhere to discredit the program. This is his attempt to do just that.
As the author of eSafe2Bid, I feel compelled to point out a few facts he failed to mention. First, if he had actually read the About Warnings window, he would have read:
=========================
Warnings shown by eSafe2Bid are not intended to be an absolute indication of improper activities by a seller. eSafe2Bid, like all computer programs, can do a great job of evaluating raw data. It is not capable of abstract thinking or applying common sense.
Therefore, please use the data presented to you only to determine whether a closer look is warranted.
==========================
eSafe2Bid does not claim to provide a yes or no answer as to whether a seller is involved in shill bidding or not. It basically does what many people have been doing for some time. That is looking at the data provided to all users by eBay and looking for patterns that COULD indicate shill bidding. The concept is not new at all. The difference is that eSafe2Bid does it in a fraction of the time that doing it by hand does.
As for his ridiculus suggestion of a law suit...well if you have tons of money and time to waste, go for it partner. eSafe2Bid is quite clear in it's explanation that warnings are only to be used as a guide for a closer look if you feel the warning warrants.
Listen folks, don't be fooled by this person who is obviously trying to distort what this program claims to do. Try it yourself. You may very well find that you love it just as many of your fellow eBayer's tell us everyday!
Yes, the program will return a warning on situations that have a perfectly valid explanation, AND IT STATES THAT FACT CLEARLY. Once you use the program, you will quickly see how it is designed to give you an overall picture of a sellers feedback history and to point out POTENTIAL problems that you may wish to look into deeper.
Thanks for the opportunity to tell THE WHOLE truth.
Regards,
Gary Mace
http://www.macesoftware.com
[ edited by esafe2bid on Mar 28, 2001 04:37 PM ]
posted on March 28, 2001 04:52:55 PM
outoftheblue has posted here for a long time now. I think he is one of the most credible people here. Your statements against him are very insulting.
posted on March 28, 2001 05:12:25 PM
Well, your web-site seems to imply that your software does more than you now say it does:
*******************
Features
For Windows 95/98/2000/ME
Detects shill bidding!!
eSafe2Bid's most useful function is it detects shill bidding where sellers place fake bids on their auctions to elevate price or increase bid count
eSafe2Bid excels at finding shill bidding.
Sellers. Show the world you passed!
If you are a seller and your ID passes eSafe2Bid with no warnings, show it off! You must be doing something right! Feel free to use a graphic to display in your auctions. Give your bidders the opportunity to see just how good you really are.
************************************
Another person trying to play off the fears of auction bidders.
posted on March 28, 2001 05:13:02 PM
redskinfan wrote:
outoftheblue has posted here for a long time now. I think he is one of the most credible people here. Your statements against him are very insulting.
===============================
My friend. I am not making statements against outoftheblue. I am simply filling in the details he failed to mention in his post. He is obviously concerned about receiving a warning using eSafe2Bid, but either failed to read, or failed to mention the very strong disclaimers that accompany those warnings.
Also, I feel his comments regarding law suits warranted a response. Too many people take that kind of sillyness seriously and may end up causing some reader to waste a lot of money or time following that poor advise.
I know nothing about outoftheblue and he is certainly entitled to his opinion. I feel I am equally entitled to respond, which I feel I did quite professionally. Sorry if you feel my right to respond is an attack on your freind...it is not. Just telling the WHOLE story about how eSafe2Bid works and how these warnings are intended to be used.
posted on March 28, 2001 05:13:46 PM
Well, if Outoftheblue could so easily, as you say, distort what the program claims to do, don't you think it is highly possible that the average user is going to do the same?
I agree with Joanne, there is no way a $10 program can do what you claim.
posted on March 28, 2001 05:40:41 PM
magazine_guy wrote:
Well, your web-site seems to imply that your software does more than you now say it does:
Detects shill bidding!!
==========================
Hello,
You read correctly. It does detect shill bidding. It has done so many times for me and my users. It has done this so well that my users have reported to me that they reported sellers to SafeHarbour using the data provided by eSafe2Bid and that Safeharbour agreed and suspended the reported seller. Several dozen sellers have been suspended due to my own reporting. If you have ever reported to Safeharbour, you know that the evidence must be undisputable before they will suspend.
What seems to be at problem here is the fact that the programs algorithms can not apply common sence. I never have found a computer program yet that could. As with all computer programs, it can only evaluate available data and look for patterns. The software does this very well IMHO. However, I am very aware that there are also many situations in which a pattern can be found due to perfectly innocent transactions. I have tried to minimize this the best I can, and have tweaked the program many times to improve this. This is why if you try the program, you will UNMISTAKABLY see the disclaimers that accompany each warning. I DO NOT want users to use this a the last word for shill bidding, and that should be clear to anyone who tries the program. The program is designed to save the user time by gathering and presenting the data in easy to read format and to give the user a starting point to look closer should that be deemed warranted.
As for the comments about it being just a $10 piece of software...I will gladly charge $119.95 if thats what it takes to be deemed worthy of purchase, but I would rather sell it for $9.95 as I feel too much software out there is already overpriced.
I urge anyone reading this thread to download the software and try it and judge for yourselves. The download provides a 15 day free trial for you to see how it works. If you like it, you can then order for $9.95, unless of course you would rather pay $119.95, in which case I will gladly accept.
posted on March 28, 2001 05:48:50 PM
Yep, very unreal. you know that the evidence must be undisputable before they will suspend Ack! We know nothing of the sort!
posted on March 28, 2001 06:00:39 PM
So basically, your company is just another parasite trying to ride eBay's coattails? And this time trying to capitalize on whatever fears a buyer might have?
This reminds me of that like-minded ReliableMerchant thread that was going around awhile back. Can we assume that you are at least of legal age to be conducting business on eBay...that particular entrepreneur/huckster wasn't.
Also interesting how the only other Auction Utility you have a link for in the program is for AW...you get a cut on the ad rates for that?
Your program lists the number of times the words "slow", "bad" and "poor" are mentioned...why not achieve some balance by also putting in "good", "great" or some other common words representing good experiences. Balance is needed here or you are simply going to dwell on the fear and the negative and turn off even more buyers in the online arena.
Well, I downloaded your little game, played it on myself, and now it can go in the recycle bin.
posted on March 28, 2001 06:15:29 PM
My concerns are, and I may have not made myself too clear:
If I was a new bidder and I checked out an ID with this program and it came up with 11 shill warnings as it did with one seller I checked (This seller has a lot of multiple bidders but does not shill), I would not bid.
Am I now going to research each ID for my self to see if they are actual shills? NO! I would move on to the next seller. These shill warnings would put red flags in the minds of many bidders and could possibly give sellers a bad reputation (that have done nothing wrong).
Also, what you said about people getting kicked off of Ebay proves my other point. People could use the useless data they get from this program to go on a vendetta against a seller.
Like it or not, these are legitimate concerns. More than half of my income is from ebay. I don't need some program messing with my reputation. People don't have to take my word for it. I hope that they try the program for themselves and make up their own minds.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Mar 28, 2001 06:38 PM ]
posted on March 28, 2001 06:54:44 PM
This reply will respond to several posts.
[i]redskinfan wrote:
omg! people are getting kicked off ebay over this unproven software. Unreal![/i]
-----------------------------
No, quite real. And that fact helps to prove eSafe2Bid does in fact work, and works very well.
redskinfan wrote:
mighty weird how quickly this guy showed up to try and denouce outoftheblue's credibility.
-----------------------------
Nothing weird or mysterious. He emailed me because he obviously had his feelings hurt because of a single warning and told me he was going to post to denounce my software's credibility. Wouldn't you defend something you spent hundreds of hours developing and testing? Weird? I hardly think so.
TheRedCircle wrote:
So basically, your company is just another parasite trying to ride eBay's coattails? And this time trying to capitalize on whatever fears a buyer might have?
No, a company that is capitalizing on a REAL, not percieved, problem. Shill bidding is a problem, and it does exist. No other software to my knowledge addresses this issue, so I feel a market does exists. Yes, I do fully believe in capitalism, democracy and other American values. Sure beats the alternatives, IMHO.
outoftheblue wrote:
If I was a new bidder and I checked out an ID with this program and it came up with 11 shill warnings as it did with one seller I checked (This seller has a lot of multiple bidders but does not shill), I would not bid.
I sure would like to know the ID that returned 11 warnings and you say does not shill bid. A manual look at this could quickly confirm or discount your claim.
Also, what you said about people getting kicked off of Ebay proves my other point. People could use the useless data they get from this program to go on a vendetta against a seller.
I've used Safeharbour MANY times to report what I felt were problem sellers. Now, and well before creating this program. One thing is for certain. They will not act on any information provided by the user alone. They will use their own data that you and I do not have access to in order to confirm the complaint. Only then will they act. Safeharbour, in my experience, will not act on your, my, or any software's data without using their own resources before suspending anyone. I have made several reports and have been advised that there was not enough data to support the claims. Your concerns about vendettas are totally unfounded I'm afraid. Safeharbour does not operate that way.
toollady Wrote:
Couldn't ebay consider this auction interference?
Doubt it, but you could certainly ask them if they do.
In closing:
Much of this does not surprise me at all. I expected all along to get some negative press, especially from sellers. This software is designed for the buyer who like many, is concerned about shill bidding. I feel the software adequately addresses the possibilities of false warnings. Although, I seriously doubt 11 unfounded warnings.
I am very much open to suggestions to improve the program. And if you feel you get a false warning, email me about it so I can look into it deeper. Maybe using your data, I can find a way to reduce the false warnings. Please do not bother however if you are not willing to tell me the ID in question.
In closing, I would like to reiterate to those who read this thread. If you are a buyer concerned about shill bidding, try it! If you are a seller, you most likely have preconceived opposition to any program that looks over your shoulder. Understandable. Too bad, because I know several power sellers who really love the feedback manager I added.
posted on March 28, 2001 07:04:34 PM
I looked at the program when it first came out.
It simply gathers data--doing in minutes what used to take hours. It is by no means a failproof diagnostic tool, and people who are using it as such really should not.
If a seller has a loyal customer who buys three or four times in a month, they may very well be flagged. I ran it on myself once, and yes, those customers of mine that were repeats were flagged. I wasn't insulted; I wasn't alarmed.
posted on March 28, 2001 07:08:57 PM
I would compare this to people getting locked up because they failed a lie detector test. Anyone who takes one of those who is nervous about anything has a great possibility of failing versus someone who is good at lying and could pass with flying colors.
This "tool" could very well put innocent auctioneers out of business.
posted on March 28, 2001 07:28:11 PM
"If you have ever reported to Safeharbour, you know that the evidence must be undisputable before they will suspend."
My gawd...you are kidding, RIGHT?
A program that looks at bidding history and then reports possible shilling is almost sure to be misunderstood/used. No matter how many disclaimers you put into the program, the user will ignore them and be sure they found a "shiller".
All one has to do is do a little research here at AW to find out that a VERY frequent complaint is "the buyer doesn't read". If the buyer doesn't read auction descriptions well enough to know that their question to the seller was answered not just once but a couple of times in the ad itself, what makes you think the bidder will read your disclaimers?
posted on March 28, 2001 08:03:04 PM
I don't want all my wonderful repeat customers 'flagged' by some parasite net-detective program. I plan on making my displeasure with this program known to all my friends who buy on Ebay as well as Ebay management.
Even if you don't mean it to be taken as exclusive proof, people are dimwitted enough to believe anything. I hope MY bidders/viewers are smart enough NOT to believe your hype....
...going now to send a warning to my auction mailing list....
posted on March 28, 2001 08:08:53 PM
Just for giggles I downloaded the freebie and tried it out.
It doesn't work at all with my ID.
I tried one other ID and it did work, but for whatever reason my ID trips up the program. I get some "unexpected result" error message.
Honesly, it's just more crap to clutter up a hardrive.
I did notice however, that AW is the only auction utility on the slide out menu under web links.
I certainly hope AW isn't endorsing this garbage.
posted on March 28, 2001 08:14:57 PM
sounds to me like a bunch of nervous sellers here. I use this and you would have to be brain dead not to see or understand the disclaimers.
NOT!
