shaani
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posted on March 31, 2001 04:38:51 PM
From the beginning I have had a fairly short TOS and I don't get many problems.
I am wondering what good is a long TOS if no one bothers to read it? Over and over the past couple of years I have seen sellers come here with problems and people ask "Was it in your TOS?" Then the sellers say "Thanks, I will add that to my TOS". What is the point of all this?
Most sellers continue to say that 98% or whatever of their buyers are good. Is it because those 98% read that long TOS? I seriously doubt it. I think most buyers are good and the problem ones are going to be a problem whether you have a 2 line TOS or a 2 page TOS.
So please, why do so many sellers have such long terms of sale statements now? Is it really that necessary? Is everyone getting so paranoid that they feel that they should have a statement that covers them "in case" something goes wrong? What "could happen" usually never does.
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abacaxi
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posted on March 31, 2001 04:44:47 PM
Mine is long because it clearly states what I expect from the buyer, and what they can expect from me. It covers payment types accepted, international shipments, the need for insurance, and my return policy.
It's firm but not harsh or insulting.
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Meya
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posted on March 31, 2001 04:56:45 PM
My TOS is 5 sentences. Shipping + Insurance cost. Types of payments I accept and how quickly I ship after I receive a MO payment. I inform that I may hold shipment for large personal checks or low feedback buyers. Where I ship to, and that I cannot accept online payments.
I haven't varied this much since I started selling in the spring of 1998. I've got 320 unique positives, and have only had a handful of true deadbeats. I've left 6 negs, all for not paying.
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mjh2
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posted on March 31, 2001 05:13:53 PM
My comments are related to the Antiques field. I think long TOS are silly and ineffective to their purpose. I am a seller and bidder. As a bidder, I am always leary when I see a TOS that is lengthier than the item description, especially when that description does not mention condition. Sometimes the TOS are quite hostile and punctuated with exclamation points. eBay has many rules, so maybe a culture of more rules just naturally follows. I never use them in my auctions. Their utility seems outweighed by their inherent bossiness. I've never seen a use for them and I don't want to discourage interest in my auctions. It strikes me as funny when sellers adopt fancy colors and formats and even pictures of their pets in order to entice bidders, while at the same time, setting forth a litany of rules. It seems a bit contradictory to me. I know that I'm going to attract fire with this opinion, but here goes: If sellers are forthright about the condition of their wares and up-front about the cost of postage,and if they stand behind their merch., then they don't need all those rules.
Lenghty TOS reveal a great deal about the seller.
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reddeer
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posted on March 31, 2001 05:22:24 PM
Define long?
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naru
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posted on March 31, 2001 05:23:00 PM
While I agree that overly long TOS just encourages a bidder to skip over it for fear of being bored to death and hostile ones are just silly (imagine being threatened by the salesperson when you walked into a store)
there should be something to refer to in the event of a misunderstanding. And I am positive there are at least 2 or 3 bidders on eBay who actually read TOS.
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cdnbooks
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posted on March 31, 2001 05:23:15 PM
"What good is a long Terms of Sale?"
It is PERFECT for discouraging bidders.
Bill
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mcjane
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posted on March 31, 2001 05:59:20 PM
These are my TOS:
"I accept personal checks and money orders. The postage is xxx."
And, I still get email asking if I accept personal checks! I'd make it shorter if it would help. Maybe I should leave out the word "the" 
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shaani
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posted on March 31, 2001 06:32:19 PM
Define long? That's a tough question, reddeer because now I am starting to see a different view on this.
Mine is only about 3 sentences and that is all I have felt a need for. I guess it all depends on how and where the TOS is layed out on the page and the "attitude" behind it.
Beyond the actual shipping costs and methods as well as payment methods if the TOS states positive things like reassurance of packaging methods and good return policy then I see no problem with a longer one even if it went to 20 sentences.
But too often lately I see the "paranoia" in the statements and what will happen if you don't obey. I guess these sellers have had some bad experiences. So they can spiel on and on and I just don't see that it will make any difference except they may lose good bidders.
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cdnbooks
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posted on March 31, 2001 07:39:11 PM
My TOS is 65 words. Super friendly. Types of payment etc.
But there are another 100 words which do nothing to but try to market my item. The are scattered throughtout the auction, often in large type. Things like welcome, great packaging, fast shipping, "I leave feedback" and "thank you for bidding"
Those aren't TOS in my book, just marketing fluff.
Bill
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cdnbooks
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posted on March 31, 2001 07:40:13 PM
Has anyone seen a super long TOS WITHOUT attitude?
Bill
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belalug3
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posted on March 31, 2001 08:54:35 PM
If a longer TOS leads to improved communication and prevents misunderstandings, I'm all for it! If someone is going to judge me negatively by my long TOS and not bid on my item because I was trying to be clear, let them MOVE ON! Why leave things to chance??
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uaru
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posted on March 31, 2001 09:21:38 PM
59 words in my TOS. I'm not selling a house. Short, sweet, and complete, has worked best for me.
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brianbrain
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posted on March 31, 2001 09:34:56 PM
3 words in my TOS:
Pay or die.
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quickdraw29
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posted on April 1, 2001 12:28:14 AM
My TOS is two lines so it can't be too hard to comprehend. It says U.S. bidders only, however, since denying foreign bids I've had a winner from Australia, Canada, England and Hong Kong. If that doesn't prove that TOS don't work, I don't know what will.
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tomswift
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posted on April 1, 2001 01:18:52 AM
My basic TOS:
Buyer pays $x.xx postage in the US.
This has worked for me for 3 years now for 95% of the items I sell, which is anything and everything.
Pet peeve: When I buy I hate it when seller's EOA notices take 2 or more pages to print. Had one last week that was 5 printed pages. For a $7 transaction on an advertising booklet. Sheesh!
- Tim
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goodvibrations
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posted on April 1, 2001 05:13:56 AM
As a buyer, I always pay the same day the bid closes with the seller's preference of payment method.
I find a lengthy TOS hostile and offensive.
I find a TOS as long as the contract for my house purchase just plain silly.
I skip auctions with lengthy TOS. I don't need anything that badly.
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shaani
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posted on April 1, 2001 11:11:23 AM
Hi cdnbooks
I have seen all kinds of "Attitude". Almost all TOS are matter of fact and straight forward. Many are friendly as you say yours is. Some are haughty and snotty like it is a privilege for you to be allowed to bid on their stuff. Some are kind of bossy.
I have seen a couple of whiney ones where they say they hate to do things a certain way and then go on to say how they were done wrong and all the pain it caused so now even though they hate to do things this way they just have to.
Lately I have seen a few more condescending, mean, bad, nasty, rude and threatening ones about how they will file for this and file for that and report you to law enforcement and safeharbor and give you negative feedback.
I have only seen one really scary one where I just knew if I pressed the bid button that something would go wrong and he would neg me. It was short and to the point.
I like the humorous ones. A long time ago I saw one where they threatened to send Bubba after you if you didn't pay up. I thought it was humorous. Maybe it was scary?
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MartyAW
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posted on April 1, 2001 11:21:06 AM
Hello mjh2,
I'm sorry but I have deleted your post with the auction number. Posting auction numbers is prohibited because personal information can be accessed.
Thank you for your consideration,
Marty
[email protected]
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HJW
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posted on April 1, 2001 11:38:07 AM
I prefer a short TOS...shipping method and
cost.
Unless the payment options are unusual, I
would just mention them in the end of auction
letter.
A long and especially a threatening TOS is
counter productive in my opinion.
Keep it simple!
Helen
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CAgrrl
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posted on April 1, 2001 03:52:27 PM
This is a timely topic, as I have been wondering if my TOS are too long. First of all, I have 3 paragraphs- the first of which is my guartantee/return policy- lengthy but totally buyer friendly and non- threatening, I basically tell the customer that they can return anything for any reason but that if they do it has to be returned to me in the same exact condition it went out in. The second paragraph covers TOS for domestic buyers and the third covers TOS for international buyers.
What do you guys think, is that too long???
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cdnbooks
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posted on April 1, 2001 07:34:04 PM
shaani
I have tried to draft humourous TOS several times but just can't seem to get it right.
I agree. They can be fun.
So I'm stuck on friendly.
Bill
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cdnbooks
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posted on April 1, 2001 07:37:37 PM
CAgrrl
I put the details of my guarantee on my 'me' page. The listing has a link that says 'satisfaction guaranteed'
Our friend reddeer puts his International TOS in his 'me' page.
Both help to keep the listing TOS short and to the point.
Bill
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shaani
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posted on April 1, 2001 08:58:46 PM
cdnbooks
I have noticed that you have a very sharp wit so you would probably be able to do a humorous TOS better than most.
I do think it would be the most difficult one to do though, mainly because there are some people out there with no sense of humor and they just wouldn't "get it". or worse yet they may take it to mean something entirely different.
Thanks to everyone for your opinions on this. As usual I have learned a few things.
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touchofeurope
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posted on April 3, 2001 02:36:00 PM
Speaking about TOS, I couldn't resist copying this one from a seller in Louisiana who obviously needs an attitude adjustment. If I was seriously interested in this item I wouldn't bid anyway, soooo condescending!
"Frequently asked questions:
1. Can I pay by personal check?
NO.
2. But I'd really like to pay by personal check because the post office is in the next county and I live in a tree house.
NO.
3. Can I pay by personal check?
NO.
Sorry about the (feigned) levity, but I get tired of repeating myself. The terms below are what I consider to be very clear.
Terms:
High bidder/Buyer agrees to:
--pay 4.50 shipping/handling charges (Canada/Alaska/Hawaii may be higher charges than CONUS.)
--contact me within 3 days of end of auction via email to confirm transaction. (strictly adhered to)
--get payment to me within 10 days of end of auction (strictly adhered to)
--pay with US or Canadian Postal money order in US DOLLARS ONLY! (or by eCheck (and ONLY eCheck through Paypal).
Please note: if you don't plan on completing the transaction, DON'T BID! I WILL post negative feedback!"
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mballai
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posted on April 3, 2001 04:27:26 PM
A long TOS = a short mouseclick on the browser's back button. 
If you can't spell out your basic terms in three to five sentences, you guarantee lost bids. Anything that doesn't pertain to the item or the minimum information to do the transaction should be avoided like the Ebola virus. Your page has maybe 20 seconds before the bidder moves on. You tell me if they give a hairy rodent's backside about your TOS?
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Capriole
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posted on April 3, 2001 05:21:43 PM
Bidder Hat on:
Shipping costs, return policy, payment info, and last but not least, email address.
I don't want to know if you are religious, love your little fuzzy dog, act in a local production of "Mame," or collect fuzzy penguins on the side.
I would hope that your knowledge of this item reflects in this description.
I try to emulate that model as a seller.
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fraidykat
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posted on April 3, 2001 06:16:06 PM
I'd think it would weed out all but the most interested bidders...too long equals the back button for me. Ran into one this week when browsing...a $1 clothing item. 12 words of actual description of the item with the caveats that it may not be as represented or the pic might be bad or blurry or the colors differ on your monitor. All that before a 42 line one paragraph TOS which covered everything from U.S. embargos to shipping to boats! Item didn't sell.
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