posted on April 26, 2001 07:07:08 AM new
A buyer just contacted me to say she was unhappy with the item she bought from me ($51). She offered to pay $10 and keep it, or wanted a refund (plus shipping both ways). I include a letter with auctions saying I will be happy to work things out if they are unhappy in any way. Guess that is asking for trouble but I have never had any until now.
I asked her to send the items back, even though I disagree with her and feel it a bit unfair to pay shipping both ways. She claims there are many flaws that I didn't mention.
If I missed the flaws, fine, my problem. I inspected the items though (old linens) and really did not see anything like she is claiming. I am getting worried because of the number of threads I have seen here about pulling a switch. These items were probably not unique and I am afraid she will send me others - and get a hefty rebate in the bargain since they normally do not sell for that much money (I was frankly very surprised they went for that much!)
I am buying an invisible pen as we speak, but in the meantime I am not really sure what to do if I find the items I get back are not mine - and, another question, what is the fair way to handle shipping? I want to do the right thing here, but I don't want to be taken for a fool either!
posted on April 26, 2001 07:12:27 AM new
What do your TOS say about refunds on shipping? Do you agree to pay shipping both ways under a refund situation?
If you get them back & they aren't the same, email her & explain (in a non-accusatory way) that perhaps she made a mistake by returning the incorrect items to you since these are NOT (according to your documentation) the items you sent her.
If she's switched them, she may have to back away thinking you do have a way to tell.
If she hasn't, then just work out whatever refund your TOS/letter have stated.
I sometimes wonder when I see threads like this if some buyers make a practice of complaining about flaws just to get the price reduced afterward. I think we had a thread once where the buyer made a practice of being a pain just to get sellers to give refunds & he got to keep the items.
posted on April 26, 2001 07:16:08 AM new
I'm afraid I don't have anything in my TOS about a refund. I just include a letter when I ship saying I want them to be happy with their items and to contact me if they are not. It's been enough for nearly 2 years but I guess it only takes one to make me rethink.
Good advice about the return, I just really hope I can tell the difference if I get other ones back - I am pretty sure but not 100% sure I can...
I have been reading a lot about buyers doing this which is why I want the pen to mark items, and I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and change my TOS. I just figured nobody would read them anyway.
I was horribly burned a few weeks ago when I bought a large lot and it was not at all what was described. Seller refused to refund, she also had nothing in her TOS. I haven't left a neg about this whole mess since it was partly my fault for not asking questions, but I don't want to risk a neg from this buyer so I decided to behave differently than the way I was treated!
posted on April 26, 2001 08:35:04 AM new
This sounds more like buyers remorse than anything else. I would not refund on those grounds. Even if you let her return the item, shipping both ways? No way.
posted on April 26, 2001 10:28:28 AM new
If you let her return them, don't issue a refund until you inspect them. It's not a good idea for the seller to have both the money and the item out of hand, if it can be avoided.
Good luck. That Buy and Switch routine is a problem.
posted on April 26, 2001 11:10:41 AM new
I am getting more and more worried about this the more I think of it. When I re-read her email - see below - I am thinking either I am completly blind, or this is going to be a switch. There is no way I could have missed the problems she describes, and I am very careful to list flaws because I have had such bad experiences as a buyer. I really enjoy selling and want it to be a nice experience for the buyer, this made me rush to ebay to buy a black light... but it might be too late!
Here is what she says
"it's other things that I found which were not disclosed that are a real problem. On the back side of one case, there are two pencil eraser size holes. On the back side of the other one, there is one tear(hole) about the size of a quarter and another smaller hole and the material around this area is so very very thin-nearly threadbare. I can only suppose that you didn't see these things I'm pointing out. The embroidery is very nice and the crochet is very nice, but I simply cannot pay $51 for these cases. Let's see what we can work out. Let's see. I paid $2.99 for one runner and $3.24 for the other. The pillowcases were $51.00 and I suppose I paid $6.25 shipping since I sent you two checks--1 for $$55.44 and another one for $8.04. Am I right on my figures. If not, be sure and tell me."
On top of it all she has no clue on how to figure our postage - She paid $5.15 and $1.10 insurance by the way. What a mess! The other two items she generously agreed to keep (3$ and 4$ each!!! but worth about twice that!)
posted on April 26, 2001 11:13:00 AM new
oops - forgot to paste the last and best part of her mail - where she tells me what she would agree to:
"You can tell me how you would like to resolve this satisfactorily for both of us. The only thing that I (or I believe anyone else) could possibly use the cases would be to cut off the bad part and make two little pillows with the trim lapping over. I'll be happy to do this and pay you $10.00 for the pair instead of $51.00. I'm not trying to take advantage of you, but this is what I see as being fair.
Or, would you like for me to just mail them back. Will probably cost me $3.20 and then you just refund me the $51.00 plus the $3.20 shipping for sending them back and about $3 for sending them to me. I realize this might seem unfair to you, but your letter said to let you know if there was a problem.
You make the call. I also want you to be pleased just as you stated in your letter than you wanted me to be pleased. Oh my, what shall we do? Thanks for e-mailing me your preference."
She sounds sweet but I am worried about that neg hanging over my head - yes I already gave her feedback!!! I am kicking myself here but I don't want a neg either! Guess I'll just eat the shipping fees for peace's sake?
posted on April 26, 2001 11:30:56 AM new
I can't tell whether she's a real sweetheart and wants to do something for you in return for you sending her inferior merchandise (which, if she's correct, is what she'd be doing), or if she's a fabulous scam artist who wants to destroy the evidence by cutting up the bad sheets and sewing them into something else. With the second scenario, she'd have a set of sheets in great condition AND her money back, while she's managed to dump the bad sheets she had to begin with.
Are people so nice as to help out someone who they think misled them, or does she see a way to pull a fantastic Buy and Switch that you could never prove once she cuts up the old sheets?
posted on April 26, 2001 11:36:07 AM new
I sure wish I knew...
These were not inferior, they were really nice. I had almost decided to keep them for my own use (guess I will now huh?!).
I have offered to take them back. I didn't go into detail about shipping costs etc.. figured I'd wait for her response to my offer of a refund after she returns them to me. I haven't heard anything yet.
I have no problem refunding, I stand behind what I sell and I am sure I can resell them. I do have a problem if I get something else back, and having to eat the shipping both ways. The shipping I can handle this one time since my TOS was not clear - but I dread the old bait'n switch routine...
posted on April 26, 2001 11:42:20 AM new
It's nice of you to offer to accept the return, touchofeurope, but you may not end up with the sheets you sent her. I wish you good luck.
One idea for "marking" your fabrics is to sew a thin thread of a particular color into a seam. Put it someplace where it won't be detected by someone who only inspects the item with a cursory glance because he or she plans to return a different one to you. then when you get the returned item, you'll know it's not the one you sent and you can refuse to issue the refund.
It won't be drop-dead proof where the buyer is concernet, but you'll know the truth. It won't help you in this case, but maybe in the future.
posted on April 26, 2001 11:46:15 AM new
Ah, pillowcases. OK. Good luck with this. Becareful about using an invisible pen, because the ink might discolor in time. When you mark items to be sure they aren't switched, it's important to not degrade the quality of the item. A "secret thread" can always be pulled out when someone sees it eons later.
posted on April 26, 2001 12:03:28 PM new
Banging my head against the screen and thinking drat!!! Why didn't I think of the thread idea - thank you, great great tip!
I was worried about the pen, and I think I'll only use it for other items. I love the thread idea because I can use one that is so close to the color it wouldn't be noticeable - I love AW - the best tips! Thanks Marble! I may get scr...d on this one, but not again!
posted on April 26, 2001 12:04:47 PM new
Touchofeurope: How could you miss a hole the size of a quarter or even the size of a pencil eraser? In a pillow case? LOL. You must have the same eye doctor I have.
My impression after reading her e-mail is that she is a real piece of work. A total pro at getting good stuff for bargain prices. Just exchange it for similar junk and make the seller pick up all the costs! And, do it under the guise of being sweet and concerned.
My advice is when she returns the items, to examine them carefully. If there is ANY doubt in your mind at all that they are not the cases you sent her, then e-mail her a sweet and polite inquiry pointing out that she must have gotten your goods mixed up with those of another seller. State simply (and sweetly) that these are not the same cases that you shipped to her. DO NOT let any doubts show through or give her any weasel room. Ask her which seller she would like you to forward them to after she sends you the shipping money.
Good luck! And, please let us know how this works out.
Edited to add: I say this because she has her solution all worked out and knows the ropes re: shipping back and forth. Buyers don't usually think of this stuff right off the bat. They send a "what the..?" e-mail first and then think of practical matters. She's just too slick.
posted on April 26, 2001 12:07:12 PM new
Do you think you would have missed those holes and tears?
I know with all of our thriftshop/estate sale experience here that kind of "miss" is out of the question, at least in my book.
If you didn't see them and didn't describe them, then you you should know. Especially eraser sized and quarter size.
In fact that's something I would point out, and take the lesser amount.
If you are certain that the holes are not yours, then do your best to document it, with photos.
I have stacks of damask from estate sales that I keep for my own use, but I have also taken some of the beater stuff and made it into chair backs, smaller table coverings and even pillow cases.
Beater has it's place, even a teabag dye job can breath new life into it.
Anyhow, I am suspicious. Those holes are obvious to anyone who has unfolded the cloth. She may be pulling something, very sweetly.
posted on April 26, 2001 12:38:55 PM new
Thanks all! My main reason for posting is that she did seem to have it all down sooo pat!
I always state any defects I find. In this case there was some loose crochet and I pointed it out carefully. I cannot imagine I would have missed holes that size - and I think I have 20/20 vision but probably need a checkup after this one!!
You are right, she really does know the ropes, down to trying to pull a fast one on the shipping costs, the way she calculated them made me laugh - she must not have been to a post office lately.
She has been buying a ton of stuff, mostly linens and vintage lamps and stuff, I think she's a professional. He feedback is low but this could be a buying ID or something. She has a very low feedback (less than 100) but 4 pages of stuff she has bought in the last 4 weeks -hmmm...! - wonder if she is going to pull this on other sellers.
On a whime I checked who my second highest bidder was - and I guess this is not my week. I had one deadbeat this last auction series, and, YES - the same deadbeat had the second highest bid on these. Guess they were meant for me after all! Hope I don't poke my head through those holes.... after all they are really big!
I'll keep you posted, thanks for the advice, won't be burned twice!
posted on April 26, 2001 01:03:51 PM new
My policy is that I will gladly accept returns for any reason and reimburse the entire bid plus shipping both ways. I do not make deals or do partial returns.
Personally, I suggest that you will refund her bid plus shipping both ways after you receive ALL the items back WITH your mark intact. Don't say where or what your mark is. This might discourage her from pulling a switcheroo.
Good luck,
El
"The customer may not always be right, but she is always the customer."
posted on April 26, 2001 07:06:06 PM new
This is the reason why i will not leave feedback right away. I will wait till i hear from them. Do not let the fear of a neg run your life.
At this stage i get the feeling that you think that they are pulling a fast one on you. Go with your gut feeling, it is a good guide. Whatever you do, no refund till you get the goods back.
Just wanted to add that a neg is highly over rated. Do what is right, but do not let someone bully you into anything. Best of luck.
posted on April 27, 2001 04:06:51 AM new
For some time I auctioned designer clothing through my husbands eBay account. That worked fine untill the first switheroo...a pristine Chanel pantsuit returned with different, moth holed pants. The darling boy agreed to continue selling but when it happened again (one month after the sale)he refused to accept the return and had to suffer the buyers extortion threats. The poor dear had been so proud of his praise sheet and now has to wear a dishonest seller complaint like a red letter, *twice* (she had a friend buy something small). I now have my own eBay account, but alas, have given up selling designer schmata.
posted on April 27, 2001 07:14:59 AM new
touchofeurope:
First of all, what I'm about to say IS NOT a direct personal attack on you, and I hope you don't take it as such. Threads similar to this one pop up on a regular basis.
That being said, this is yet another in a long line of examples of why it is unwise to leave feedback based upon timely payment only. Con artists ALWAYS pay very quickly.
Feedback is transactional and should reflect the entire transaction. Timely payment is but a small part of the overall transaction.
You have just reached the most critical part of your transaction with this bidder (resolving an issue). How much your customer is willing to work with you in resolving this issue should be reflected in your feedback. Since you have already left feedback, this is now impossible. And had you waited to leave feedback until after the transaction was completed, I doubt that you would even be asked to refund at all. Con artists prey on sellers who leave feedback upon receipt of payment. This is why they always pay right away (to build confidence with the seller and lock in the feedback protection).
You basically transferred all of your leverage to the buyer when you jumped the gun with the feedback.
Concerning the neg: As a seller, I'll do anything reasonable to avoid a neg. But I don't see refunding a con artist as reasonable. I would take the neg if I was certain that the item returned isn't the same one that I sent.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Apr 27, 2001 07:19 AM ]
posted on April 27, 2001 07:27:47 AM new
I always leave feedback & ship the same day the funds arrive.
1248 feedback left, no negs, and no con artists have ever been successful in squeezing me on a return. One tried, but failed, and in the end left me pos feedback. Two returns so far, and both times the buyer was clearly in the right.
I'll gladly refund the high bid amount AND shipping BOTH ways, if I screwed up.
Otherwise, it's a no go. If someone wants to neg me over it, fine & dandy.
posted on April 27, 2001 07:40:20 AM new
I think eleanordew has it exactly right.
NO partial returns, full refund if your mark is intact on ALL items. I wouldn't be surprised if that stopped her in her tracks. No way you could miss a hole the size of a quarter. Right?
posted on April 27, 2001 09:02:25 AM new
Well, here's the response I found on my computer this morning, pretty eerie considering this discussion yesterday.
Hi. Thanks for the e-mail. I really feel better about shipping them back to you so you can see what I'm talking about. My friend told me last night that I should do this. I'm sure you just missed it because the embroidery and crochet was really pretty--just like you described them. They will be mailed tomorrow through the post office. Please e-mail me when you have received them and also when you mail the refund. I'll be entering positive feedback just as soon as we get this settled. I'm sure that when you see them, you'll know that it was just an oversight and I can certainly understand that that could certainly happen. I do want you to see that I didn't have anything to do with the holes being there. Thanks again. I'll be watching your site in the future.
She seems so nice but how can someone with so little feedback know so much about the system? This has to be a 2nd, probably buying ID or something. Also, I never imagined she would have anything to do with the holes being on the pair <b>I</b> sent her! LOL!
I guess I will start waiting for feedback, marking my items and getting my eyes examined, not necessarily in that order. I am so sure I examined these but I am beginning to wonder if I'm going nuts!! Thanks for the support and ideas, this won't happen again - con artist or not, she's taught me some lessons!
posted on April 27, 2001 09:56:44 AM new
1. When there is a problem and your customer is as nice as this one appears, bend over backwards to reciprocate. (they are not always understanding)
2. Some people do their homework before they venture into anything new. (and it is not that hard to go through help)
I am sure there are a lot of people on this list who could give you stories from hell about customers. (just talking bidders here not sellers - that is another thread) This is an ideal situation in my book. A mistake that I possibly made and the customer is willing to take the time to send it back and wait for refund- sounds more than reasonable to me.
posted on April 27, 2001 01:07:08 PM new
I am inclined to agree with <b>llama_lady</b>, but I have read and hear so many horror stories, I just want other's take on this.
I really cannot imagine I did not see these flaws, especially since they appear pretty obvious - I must have been on another planet the day I examined them I guess. It is possible, so I will just wait and see what happens and what I get back.
I have no problem refunding if it's my fault in any way, on the contrary - so if this is a good faith situation, fine! If it isn't, I've learned my lesson.
posted on April 27, 2001 05:30:16 PM new
The good thing, touchofeurope, is that you're in the driver's seat now. You won't refund until you get the cases back and see that yes indeed, they are the same ones you shipped, in the same condition you shipped them in. If you feel she did a switch, send 'em back to her, certified mail, and refuse to refund. You may have to swallow a neg., but at least you won't have been conned. Or, alternatively, you may decide to just refund and get on with your life, with your eyes open wider. Do what makes you feel comfortable. BTW, I've had one or two people try something like this, and I have found that saying something like, "goodness, that damage must have happened in transit! I'll send you an insurance form right away" can work wonders. At the bottom of the insurance form is a great big warning about fraud and its penalties. I've found that miraculously, the item turns out to be "OK after all."
