posted on May 7, 2001 10:38:37 PM new
There's an item on eBay that I'm interested in, there's a lot of bids and so just out of curiosity I looked at the bid history. I don't know if this is shilling, or there would be another reason for this, but here's an example of what I'm referring to: On May 4, he is listed four times in a row and the times of his bids are 17:28:01; 17:27:44; 17:27:21; and then 05:56. And another day there's two bids at 04:44:44 and 04:44:58. Is there another reason why anybody would do this besides plain 'ol shill bidding? I'm just trying to learn more about this stuff and I'm really curious.
posted on May 7, 2001 11:51:21 PM new
It's probably a newbie. Some people don't know that you can do something other than a "minimum" bid, and they probably are confused about the concept of a proxy bid not raising the price of an auction until someone else comes in and tries to bid against them.
I've seen people make 10 (or even more!) bids in a row, one right after the other, until they finally (a) give up, (b) become the high bidder, or (c) get a clue about the bidding process!!
posted on May 8, 2001 05:25:16 AM new
Does it even really matter? Why not just place your proxy bid and not even look at the auction again until it ends. If you get the item at a good price then you got a good deal.
I'm NOT condoning shill bidding, if in fact it is taking place. But my time and relative lack of stress are worth much more to me than any small bit of satisfaction I might gain by "catching" a shiller. When I see an item I want, I bid my max and don't look back. If it's something I REALLY want, I don't bid until the end and then I snipe it (with great success so far).
posted on May 8, 2001 05:43:15 AM new
"Does it even really matter? Why not just place your proxy bid and not even look at the auction again until it ends. If you get the item at a good price then you got a good deal."
Unless this is a unique item, or unless you are independently wealthy, I'll tell you why it matters - you will NEVER get a bargain from a seller who practices shilling, but you might from one who doesn't, so you can spend less money by avoiding shilling.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay less than more for an item. If shilling were an incredibly rare event, I wouldnt' worry about it, but it seems to happen often enough that its worth looking out for.
In this particular case, its hard to tell if its shilling or not, without more information.
posted on May 8, 2001 05:54:01 AM new
It may not be shilling. I consider myself a seasoned bidder and there are times that you can see I bid more than a few times on an item. It depends what the auction is, but sometimes it is just fun to try and outbid the person by a little or a lot. I don't always place my highest bid first. Why? just because. It also depends how serious I am about the bidding, meaning that if I don't win, it is no biggie and I'll just bid on another one like it. This comes under my 'do I need it or just want it?'
posted on May 8, 2001 06:09:33 AM newUnless this is a unique item, or unless you are independently wealthy, I'll tell you why it matters - you will NEVER get a bargain from a seller who practices shilling, but you might from one who doesn't, so you can spend less money by avoiding shilling.
That is one way to look at it. Here is another way: If I win an item for a bid amount that I consider to be a bargain, the fact that it's a bargain doesn't change just because I may have been shilled.
I have no doubt been shilled on auctions that I have won in the past. But I got an item that I wanted at a price that I was willing to pay. And I got it without the hassle of trying to figure out whether I was being shilled or not. Less stress and more peace of mind is always a good thing IMO.
Again, this IS NOT meant to condone shilling. Far from it.
posted on May 8, 2001 06:24:40 AM new
"If I win an item for a bid amount that I consider to be a bargain, the fact that it's a bargain doesn't change just because I may have been shilled"
Agreed, but irrelevant to the point I was making.
Just to say it again, avoiding shilling is one way to spend less money at ebay, which is the goal of MOST of us (may not be for you).
I avoid sellers with "nasty" TOS (reduce my chance of an argument/problem) and sellers with suspicious selling history (increase my chance of a bargain).
On a $10 item, who cares? On a $1000 item, I would look at the seller's history VERY carefully.
The best way to spend the least $ is to place a last-second bid with a "clean" seller. The best way to spend the most $ is to place an early proxy bid with any-old-seller.
posted on May 8, 2001 06:38:47 AM new
captainkirk:
Your approach obviously works for you. Mine works for me. I don't disagree with your premises, I just don't think they're all that important in the grand scheme of things.
My time and low blood pressure are more important to me than squeezing every last cent in savings from a transaction.
Saving as much money as possible on an item is apparently your main concern. I don't disagree with that at all. It's all a matter of personal priorities.
We just have differing viewpoints regarding this issue.
posted on May 8, 2001 06:43:34 AM newDoes it even really matter? Why not just place your proxy bid and not even look at the auction again until it ends. If you get the item at a good price then you got a good deal
Dubya - that's the way I look at it too. If I really REALLY want the item, I usually go in at the last minute and place my max bid. If somebody's shilling, that's their business and if it goes too high, I won't bid on it anyway. See, my friend was watching over my shoulder the other night and I was trying to explain proxy bidding to him, and he kept asking why this bidder was placing multiple bids all in a row (he's pretty new to this ebay stuff). It was just bugging me cause I didn't know "why" (that's just my nature - I always gotta know the reason for everything
It's probably a newbie. Some people don't know that you can do something other than a "minimum" bid, and they probably are confused about the concept of a proxy bid not raising the price of an auction until someone else comes in and tries to bid against them
mcbrunn - That's what I was thinking too - I know that when I first got on ebay, I didn't understand that you could put in a high maximum bid - I used to think that if I put that amount in, that's what I would end up paying. And this bidder does have zero feedback and shades, so that coulda been me a few years back
I actually never mentioned my personal stance on "squeezing every last cent" (a phrase you invented to describe my bidding behavior, based purely on your own speculation), I was speaking IN GENERAL, since I can confidently say that IN GENERAL most people prefer to spend less than more.
And on a $1000 auction shilling can cost you more than "a last cent".
It isn't important if we agree or disagree personally on bidding practice, I was just pointing out the GENERAL fallacy of your inital rhetorical question of "why does it matter if the seller shills or not".
The answer: it matters for people who aren't wealthy and who want to save money.
I think that's most of us..excluding rich Texas millionaires who made a fortune from being part of the incrowd, of course
PS - for the record, I am an average bidder,at best, in terms of "squeezing every last cent". I snipe sometimes, but far from always, and often just drop a proxy bid since my time, too, is valuable.
But I don't recommend your generic cavalier attitude of "don't worry about shilling" to the general person, esp. when bidding on an expensive item. At least, if you care about spending an extra couple hundred bucks (approximately 20,000 cents, by the way) you should check out the seller.
posted on May 8, 2001 07:14:55 AM new
The thing that irks me about shilling is when it's something unique that I really want. It ticks me off that even though I go in at the beginning and put in my high proxy bid that somebody else "playing around" can up the price on it just for the he** of it. I read somewhere that there are actually rings of shillers who work for each other - but I've seen that at 'live' auctions around here too. And I gotta admit ..... I luv to snipe
posted on May 8, 2001 07:46:52 AM new
Lots of small incrament bids do not in and of themselves indicate shilling but it is ONE indication. Go look at the bidders history and see who's auctions he is bidding on. If he mostly bids on the same sellers auctions and rarely ever wins then it is likely he is shill bidding. If he doesn't have any feedback from or to this seller then bingo! I just found one last week and he has been suspended.
posted on May 8, 2001 07:54:59 AM new
Okay, but say I put in a bid and it doesn't go over the highest bidder's proxy bid - on the bidding history page, wouldn't it show my name and then the high bidders's name (showing that he's got a higher bid in), then my name, and so forth.....?? Or does it not show the highest bidder in between my bids?
t instead of w
[ edited by bobbi355 on May 8, 2001 07:56 AM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 01:40:03 PM new
Why does it matter if the seller is shilling or not?
It is unethical and illegal. I don't wish to do business with someone using this practice, no matter what "deal" I may get. If I get a great deal even with shilling, that just means the seller is lousy at it.
The best term I've heard for bidders that bid several times in a row is "bid chipping". Sitting ducks for a snipe, IMO.
posted on May 8, 2001 01:51:24 PM new
I'd say this is definitely not shilling. I've seen plenty of instances where a bidder (or myself) puts in a bid which doesn't exceed someone else's proxy, immediately ups it a little more, then again... maybe gives up and decides two days later that he really does want the item, so bids again. That's all this looks like to me.
Unless the same bidder does this to all the seller's auctions.
[ edited by RainyBear on May 8, 2001 01:52 PM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 02:26:50 PM new
One auction doesn't mean a shill in my book. It's too subjective.
I will nibble, too. Just to see how high I may want to go.
If you look at the bidders history and see who he bids on most often, it anywhere else, then it's got something to investigate.
posted on May 8, 2001 02:45:30 PM new
I'm trying to think of how to word this - but then I use my hands all the time when I talk Okay - I'm not trying to 'catch' anyone sniping. When my friend was looking at the item up for auction that we were interested in, I was attempting to explain to him how the bidding process works. I showed him the bid history page, and he asked why there were so many bids all in a row from the same person. I answered him by saying that it must be shilling, because I figured that if he was just trying to top the high bidder, that the high bidder's username would be listed in between the bids, like this:
posted on May 8, 2001 02:53:15 PM newNO , that's not how it would look.
It would look like this.
high bidder
bidder
bidder
bidder
bidder
I have an auction ending shortly that shows the above example. The high bidder bid several days ago, and is still holding the top bid. The new bidder came in today and took a run at her proxy, and so far has failed to outbid the high bidder.
There's way too many people running around yelling SHILL, when in fact they know not what they speak of.
posted on May 8, 2001 02:54:24 PM new
Looks like a bidder wants to catch the high bidder's proxy. Either they want to win by a slim margin or they are feeling out the auction's high price or they are shilling.
Which do you choose? Well do your homework. If it looks like something weird, then research the bidder: id history, bids, feedback etc.
Otherwise the first two seem just as viable.
According to your example IF the bidder bid after the high bidder then it is a case of the high bidder having a higher proxy which outbids the bidder's price.
Sniping is different...you won't see a sniper until the end of the auction. Ideally in the last 2-4 seconds.
Here is another twist: a friend of mine was outbid on an item and increased the bid price out of spite! I bet the seller was happy to get over $13 for a mass market paperback!!!!
I chastised her because ethically I didn't think it was right (walk in the other guy's shoes etc). Anyhow. Stranger things have happened, I am sure a lot of the experienced sellers on this board can tell many tales from the trenches!!!
posted on May 8, 2001 03:08:20 PM newThe high bidder bid several days ago, and is still holding the top bid. The new bidder came in today and took a run at her proxy, and so far has failed to outbid the high bidder
Ahhh..... I had always thought that even if the high bidder had put his proxy in, that it would still pop up in between.
There's way too many people running around yelling SHILL, when in fact they know not what they speak of
Well, I learn by asking questions - and I found out the answer - Live and Learn
posted on May 8, 2001 03:32:29 PM newIf you look at the bidders history and see who he bids on most often, it anywhere else, then it's got something to investigate
hmmm......I just did that and it's pretty interesting. This bidder currently has $2,687.00 worth of bids on 6 of this same type of item. ......interesting......
posted on May 9, 2001 07:06:21 AM newI actually never mentioned my personal stance on "squeezing every last cent" (a phrase you invented to describe my bidding behavior, based purely on your own speculation), I was speaking IN GENERAL, since I can confidently say that IN GENERAL most people prefer to spend less than more.
I apologize for the erroneous conclusion that I reached based upon your previous posts. Thanks for clearing it up.
