posted on July 8, 2001 03:27:18 PM new
After reading some of the PayPal (PP) posts in the other threads and having received my own "Rate Increase" and "Cancel Your Billpoint Account" emails from PP, I'm beginning to wonder just how stable PP is.
It seems to me that both these actions, (raising the fees for the "little guys" and the paranoid hysteria that someone might actually offer PayPal AND Billpoint) are things that a company would take whose own financial stability may be weak.
posted on July 8, 2001 03:29:44 PM new
I don't believe Paypal's most recent emails re: the Billpoint logo issue is because they are afraid of people offering both services. Its because there are some sellers who have agreed to be Paypal Preferred and NOT have logos for competing services in their listings, and because of this bug/new feature Billpoint and Ebay have put together, sellers are at risk of losing that Paypal Preferred Status. I appreciate them contacting sellers this way, because sellers who don't read message forums and aren't watching their auctions closely could have Billpoint logos in them that they don't want.
posted on July 8, 2001 03:56:56 PM new
So, kayiyana, did you find the PayPal email helpful when they stated the following:
"[My] infant daughter may not have a place to lay her head since Billpoint took the rent money out of my checking account."
This is obviously PayPal attempting to try to divert attention from their recent and repetitive fee hikes. Notice that in other threads paypaldamon will not address the issue of "Matching other offers" when it comes to PayDirect (which charges nothing) and c2it (which charges 1%).
posted on July 8, 2001 04:04:44 PM new
i have been wondering about this myself?
paypal has spent a fortune giving away 5 and 10 dollars to get subscribers only to see its ebay market share eroding in front of their eyes.
with other dot.coms going out of business,they have less customers or potential customers they can count on installing web accept .
now they are subsidising our use of the debit card,that cost a bit too!!
it is very hard to fight billpoint on ebay as billpoint is own by ebay and wells fargo.
paypal has been building a directory of shops which accept paypal and sending shops traffic and reports,unfortunately for me it does not produce any sales.
i went to the site and search for items which i have in my shop and nothing shows up.
i emailed them twice and heard nothing,something is wrong with their search.
do a search yourself and see if your item shows up >
yes,i have thought about the finacial condition of these dot.coms and wonder when and where is the next bomb!!!!!
posted on July 8, 2001 04:23:59 PM new
I don't use PayPal (never have) because I don't believe there's a long term "fit" for them in the market.
1) IF they become immensely popular, the credit card companies & banks will offer EXACTLY what they offer at a lower cost (PayPal is no more than a middle man between you & CC companies or banks). The reason MC/Visa and other banks aren't jumping in yet is that PayPal is STILL losing money, even at 2.9%. Why rush to the slaughterhouse?
2) IF they have all their eggs in the "eBay basket" and plan on dominating the on-line auction market only, then they're sunk. Since eBay owns Billpoint, they don't have to worry about that "individual entity" making a profit. They could undercut PayPal until they "bled to death", and then raise the fees back once they're gone.
Either way, I don't see a fit for PayPal (and BTW, the fee increases aren't done yet IMHO -- even the LARGEST merchants that do MILLIONS in transactions a year pay close to what they're charging you -- I'm virtually certain PayPal is STILL "in the red" even at 2.9%. Long term I think 3 1/2 to 4% fees will be required from a MIDDLEMAN to give you CC capability. When they get up that high, the banks & CC companies will jump in).
posted on July 8, 2001 05:59:09 PM new
I think PayPal is doing just fine. I've found all sorts of online merchants who now accept PayPal (none of them auctions), and most of the people I know who are setting up sales sites want to accept it and ask me how it works.
As for it being "a good fit for the market," what is a better fit? There are thousands of small sellers on the Web who either can't get a merchant account or don't want the hassle and expense of one. PayPal enables them to accept credit cards, or payments from an existing balance, or money from a checking account (without the check). There are several other services that do the same thing, but none that seem to be as ubiquitous in the general Internet marketplace as PayPal.
Yes, I'm very aware of the potential for problems and I've taken what I consider to be reasonable steps to protect myself from any major loss through PayPal. But I'm going to continue to accept it until something better and easier and cheaper comes along.
posted on July 8, 2001 06:14:58 PM new
If you're looking for something cheaper, try c2it. Just got my first payment through them, it was very easy. And I like having Citibank standing behind them - I don't worry about them going out of business.
posted on July 8, 2001 06:22:15 PM new
In my little corner of the world PayPal is in big trouble,but I only run about 100 auctions a month at this time of year.When I first started using them about 80 percent of my customers were paying with Paypal.I stopped putting their ad in my auctions when they started charging after saying they never would.(why should I give free advertising for something that is going to cost me money?)My paypal payments went down by about 50 percent.When they announced they were raising their fees I stopped saying that we accecpt paypal in my descriptions but left it in my EOA letter.Since then I have had only two paypal payments.I am now going to drop them from my EOA letter but if people ask I will still accecpt it,at least for now.
posted on July 8, 2001 07:15:07 PM new
paypal is good for piecemeal transactions without long term commitment/
i have a yahoo shop and i signed up with paymentech to process credit card transactions and install shopping cart,there is a 6 months commitment whether your yahoo shop lasts 6 months or not.
there is also a minimum of 15 dollars discount fee,whether you have sales or not,you are looking at 22.95 plus 15 each month.
paypal is good for someone who just sell a few or just new seller,or one party wants to advance some money to another.
there will be a place in e commerce for paypal or whoever is willing to provide the service,personally i think the fee is just too low to be profitable.
what is the alternative if your customer wants to use their credit card and you dont sell enough to have a merchant account or just dont want to be bothered.
the other services are not free,if it is free now,it wont be for long.why do we always want other to give us something free?we dont like to give away our merchandise or time FREE!
posted on July 8, 2001 08:33:57 PM new
It's not so much the fees that bother me it's the lies,the total lack of customer service and the fact that they have frozen people's accounts without even trying to contact them first.I would be very carefull about leaving any money in my paypal account,that letter they sent out makes me think they are pretty desperate,I also wonder about some of the posts on this and other boards,if they are low enough to send out that letter I doubt if they are above having employees sing their praises to try to cover up the voices of unhappy customers.I have a feeling paypal is not long for the world,that's why I am phasing them out.
posted on July 8, 2001 08:56:46 PM new
I'm phasing paypal out too. When they were sending notices to my buyers that I was denying their credit card, that po'd me and my buyers. It's not my limit of acceptance.
Well, if the buyers could read, "NO Credit cards" then it would be solved, but they don't read and now I'll be dropping paypal altogether. Seriously, what is wrong with these buyers? When they send the cc through paypal it even says the seller has reached their CC limit.
Upgrading is not a possibility. I can't possibly keep passing every fee on to the buyers which is tough luck for the buyers who want the convenience but won't pay for it.
posted on July 8, 2001 09:04:00 PM new
CAPITALS MEAN NOTHING
THOUGHT YOU MIGHT GET A KICK OUT OF THIS ..PAYPAL OFFERS TO INSERT THERE LOGO IN TO YOUR AUCTION..THE LOGO CHANGES WHEN THE AUCTION CLOSES SO YOU CAN RETUNR TO THE AUCTION AND USE THERE BUY NOW FEATURE ............WELL GUESS WHAT ???? IT HAS JAVA SCRIPT IN IT THAT PREVENT'S YOU FROM RELISTING IT ...WAY TO GO PAYPAL???
posted on July 8, 2001 09:05:15 PM new
I'm closing my paypal account and sticking with billpoint for now. They are cheaper for me as I sell items under $15. Paypal was taking 5% off my sales. I take MC/Visa but it seems that some people have a problem faxing or emailing their info over. The people who run paypal seem to forget its the little guy who made them and its the little guy who could break them too.
posted on July 8, 2001 09:36:39 PM new
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't eBay say that javascript is not permitted in auction listings? And PayPal is currently inserting javascript into sellers' eBay item descriptions?
Seems to me, if PayPal is so concered about its customers welfare that they would send out an email to warn eBay's apparent disregard for those customers' best interests...
You are receiving this email because eBay™ may have changed your seller preferences without contacting you.
they would not be inserting anything into anyones' item description without being 100% sure that the actions they were taking would not cause those customers to be guilty of an eBay listing violation.
posted on July 9, 2001 09:06:48 AM new
revvassago: I appreciate having my name spelled correctly, its Katiyana, not Kayiyana.
Second, I did not say that the tone of the email was appropriate - I was only commenting that notifying their users that there IS a problem with Billpoint inserting logos without a seller being aware of this. I know it has happened because I was one of those who caught them doing it to MY auctions.
All that extra anti-Billpoint commentary was, IMHO, unnecessary and detracted a great deal from the important information provided in the email - that Ebay/Billpoint have been overriding seller preferences and inserting unwanted Billpoint logos.
Now back to the main discussion - Paypal's fees, when you take into account the 1.5% cashback option, are lower than Billpoints, and they have at least an attempt at Seller Protection from chargebacks, which Billpoint provides none that I can find.
I'll continue to offer Paypal, Billpoint, Bidpay, and Paydirect as payment options in my EOA notices.
This Ebay/Billpoint vs Paypal bickering is really negative for both sides - and I wish they'd grow up.
posted on July 9, 2001 02:45:53 PM new
Hirevvassago,
So, kayiyana, did you find the PayPal email helpful when they stated the following:
"[My] infant daughter may not have a place to lay her head since Billpoint took the rent money out of my checking account."
This is obviously PayPal attempting to try to divert attention from their recent and repetitive fee hikes. Notice that in other threads paypaldamon will not address the issue of "Matching other offers" when it comes to PayDirect (which charges nothing) and c2it (which charges 1%).
(C2it is not a matching service because they charge the buyer. Billpoint, and other services like it, would be considered on the same field as we are.Paydirect does not have the same functionality, so I don't believe it is being considered---they don't offer charge backs to their users and lack seller protection).
posted on July 9, 2001 04:35:41 PM new
I was talking to a friend about all of the Paypal stuff thats been going on lately.We were wondering,If someone has money in their account when paypal goes under would that be considered a debt? If so would they still have to pay you when they file for bankruptcy? I stopped keeping money in my account when they started charging for a service that they claimed would always be free and cut up the debit card without ever using it,I'm safe but if I kept money there I would do some researh fast.
posted on July 9, 2001 04:55:58 PM new
A factor in that is that if you use the card your balance is in an investment account - it is in no sense a cash balance. Now - who owns the investment company? And does the investment company have other customers in the same funds outside PayPal or if it goes belly up do they?
While a bankrputcy is highly unlikely given our growth (15-20000 users per day) and financing (200 million+ in financing), I think I can give you some idea of what we do to attempt to eliminate the issue:
1. Users with money in the Money Market have the money, technically, with Barclay's and could go to them directly.
2. User funds are kept in a separate account from operating expenses.
Normal bankruptcy laws apply to any company seeking protection through the courts, but we have taken several steps to minimize problems in the unlikely event of a bankruptcy.
posted on July 9, 2001 05:24:28 PM new
i think we should end this thread with paypal spokesman 's explanation .
i offer paypal in my yahoo shop and i am glad to report there is life outside ebay for both buyers,sellers and service provider.
posted on July 9, 2001 05:43:24 PM new
I'm glad so many sellers are fed up with PayPal and no longer using it. There will be more buyers that use it for me! I still think PayPal is great and I know the buyers love it that's what counts.
posted on July 9, 2001 05:53:09 PM new
"Bait and Take"
Those are my words that describe the methods used by Paypal to capture customers, appease them and then take a bigger chunk of the money back. I have seen them start by offering $5 signup bonuses and free service to buyers and sellers to build a customer base. Once they had that they instituted a $.25 fee/transaction then shortly raised it to $.30. Billpoint and other payment services came on board to challenge Paypal and after a little stabilization and a few failures (Exchangepath), Paypal then offered a 1.5% rebate debit card. To obtain this rebate,they required sellers to not advertize other payment services. (interesting marketing and business model) Now,they raise prices again-this time targeting, the heart of their customer base(auctions under $15)taking more profit than ever. I guess this is a form of smart business by a dotcom. In my book this is a classic form of "Bait the Customer with the intent to Take more of the profits." If they are successful its good business,if not they will fail and lose market share. I agree that once there is a sufficient profit margin and enough providers of credit card services then the competitive ones will survive. The jury is out as to whether Paypal will be a survivor. I think they will; but like a lot of Corporate America with a much smaller market share and workforce.
CD Cards "Your Pennsylvania Postcard Connection"
posted on July 9, 2001 06:33:20 PM new
Revvassago wrote: Notice that in other threads paypaldamon will not address the issue of "Matching other offers" when it comes to PayDirect
Damon wrote: Paydirect does not have the same functionality, so I don't believe it is being considered---they don't offer charge backs to their users and lack seller protection).
Damon, ROTFLOL
* * *
As one FTC lawyer put it, "if they filed for bankruptcy tomorrow, no one knows what would happen to their accounts."
posted on July 9, 2001 08:12:45 PM new
I agree with katiyana. I don't usually have time to look at message boards and such. I have never registered with BillPoint, but I am happy to know PayPal is diligent in informing it's members of any issue that can have an impact on my auction listings. I don't think they are being paranoid. i believe they are just reacting reasonably to another of Ebay's displays of greed.
posted on July 9, 2001 08:30:54 PM new
chuckatcdcards
"Those are my words that describe the methods used by Paypal to capture customers, appease them and then take a bigger chunk of the money back. I have seen them start by offering $5 signup bonuses and free service to buyers and sellers to build a customer base. Once they had that they instituted a $.25 fee/transaction then shortly raised it to $.30."
Seems to me almost all of the auction service sites have done the same thing. PhotoPoint and even out gracious hosts here at AuctionWatch used to offer their services for free. How long did you think that would last? These aren't charitable organizations. They are out to make a buck just like all of us auction sellers.
posted on July 10, 2001 12:07:17 AM new
Damon,Thanks for your reply.Please don't think I am attacking you personally,I've never met you and your posts on this board have been very helpfull,but those figures sound inflated to me.If someone (meaning Paypal the company,not you as a person)lies to me once it's very hard to believe anything they say after that.Since the paypal will always be free thing turned out to be untrue I have taken everything your company says with a grain of salt.I am guessing that very few people will qualify for the merchant rate,and it looks like they are finding ways to back out of the matching other companys prices deal with petty technicalitys.For me this is only partly about money,it has more to do with what kind of company I want to help support.The only reason I have stuck with them this long is because I was too lazy to look for an alternative.After reading the letter they sent out I thought it was time to move on.I really hope I'm wrong on this but I think for now I will close my account.Maybe in a few months if things stay even I will open another one but I kind of doubt it.By the way my sales have not dropped at all since I stopped putting paypal in my TOS as a payment option.I don't think the average buyer cares what company a seller goes through,they want good stuff at good prices shipped fast.Best of luck to you.
posted on July 10, 2001 12:22:16 AM newpaypaldamon...Just the person I have been trying to find........I have a glitch/situation that I need advice or direction from you on that does not relate to this thread....could you please email me at
[email protected]???? I really need some help on this glitch....Thanks!
Not Minx on Ebay!
posted on July 10, 2001 02:20:48 AM new
I use Paypal and Billpoint. Like Paypal much better but, I figure it's a buyers world so I would probably trade for chickens I guess. Get more Payments with Paypal than Billpoint. I can't believe that it would be in sellers interest for Billpoint to dominate
the ebay system. Ebay has and continues to
come up with ways to get a larger share of
your sales dollar (and they are making money). No Paypal and Billpoint rates go up. No auction watch and picture hosting rates on ebay go up. As sellers we should do everything we can to make sure that
Paypal succeeds.
Based on my experience Paypal is great. The debit card is fantastic. I'm just not fond of my Billpoint money being tied up as long as it is while being sent to my checking.
With paypal, I can go right to PO and use the very money the customer sent me to pay shipping. No small deal if you have half dozen items to ship. With Billpoint, I have to ship right away but, the funds are tied up for days and not available.
....I have a glitch/situation that I need advice or direction from you on that does not relate to this thread....could you please email me at