posted on August 5, 2001 11:24:35 AM
Like many on here, of late I have been extremely distrubed by the rampant use of
phony chargebacks claiming "issues of quality
or misrepresentation". I had thought Paypals selelrs protection plan covered all possibilitues if you followed their rules and shipped to verified billing addresses. If a buyer charges back a item claiming some sort of quality issue with their bank, then
Paypal will not eat the charge as they will debit it back to your account. Billpoint is even worse as there is no seller protection policy of any sort.
Therefore the consensus seems to be to allow Paypal/Billpoint for smaller purchases, but only to allow payments from Paypal account balances for larger items, and only to allow Billpoint echeck's which cannot be charged back in a "quality" dispute. So my question to the board is how should I word that in TOS so as not to turn off potential buyers? I want to be able to accept Paypal credit card payments from established buyers with good feedback, so its just the newbies with little or no feedback that I don't want to risk taking credit cards from. Here is a example of the part of TOS that deals with payment options.
"I accept money orders/cashiers checks. Personal checks ok, but depending on your feedback record they may be held for bank clearance. I accept Paypal, but only payments funded from your balance account which are funds already in your Paypal account or funds received from your checking account. I will not accept Paypal payments funded from credit cards, unless you have good feedback ratings on Ebay and Paypal.
This is due to the rampant increase of fraudulent buyers using their own credit cards to buy items through Paypal, and then submitting bogus chargebacks with their credit card companies claiming a "quality of merchandise" issue. This "loophole issue" is not covered by Paypals Seller Protection Program, as they only cover claims of non-delivery, and fraudulent credit card use. Therfore to protect myself from fradulent buyers trying to use this loophole, I will not accept Paypal credit card payments unless you have good quality established feedback. If there is any question in your mind as to whether or not you have good quality feedback, please email me before bidding.
I gladly accept credit card payments through Bidpay, as they do not allow the loopholes that Paypal does. Bidpay does charge buyers a fee, but I will offset that by offering free shipping if you pay with Bidpay. Billpoint is okay too, but only if you pay from your checking account (echeck)."
I realize some people may say that it's too long as there is no reason to elaborate on why I don't let people use credit cards through Paypal. However I think its important to let people know why I have this policy, otherwise they may think I am a weird seller and just hit "back". Although almost everyone that reads these boards are familiar with the Paypal risks in accepting credit cards, 99% of the Ebay buyers out there have no clue as they have never read any of the forums here.
The other question I have deals with when I tell people I will only accept credit card payments if they have good feedback. Initially I was going to pick a number (+25)? and put that in the TOS to the effect that if your feedback is under +25, to email me before bidding. The problem with that is what happens to potential buyers who may be just a tad under +25 and come across the listing at the last moment when its too late for a email exchange? Also by stating a exact number I would be forcing myself to accept credit card payments from anyone with +25 or higher. As we all know, there are many people out there with dubious feedback gained by buying small $1-$2 items and/or participating in feedback auctions. There are also people with more than +25, but with a rash of recent negs. Obviously I wouldn't want to risk any of those sort of buyers using a credit card even if their feedback is above +25.
So to cover all bases I just keep it vague and state you must have good feedback. That leaves me the opportunity to accept or decline anyone.
posted on August 5, 2001 11:53:36 AM
I agree with your spirit, but I also agree that your proposed TOS is way too long. The result will be simply that no one will read it.
Get rid of the vagueness and come up with some concrete, concise words. If anyone wants to try to negotiate it with you, they will.
I would caution you, the more restrictive you make your TOS, the fewer bidders you will get. Compare the number of fraudulent claims you think you may get, and the amount of $ lost, vs. the number of bidders you're losing. Also, by detailing all of Paypal's loopholes, you're providing easy and convenient instructions for the crooks!
I suggest you get rid of your three long paragraphs and say simply: I accept money orders, cashiers checks. I also accept Personal Checks and Paypal if your feedback is greater than 25.
posted on August 5, 2001 11:59:46 AM
It is a bit wordy, why not something like:
I accept money orders/cashiers checks. Personal checks ok, but depending on your feedback record they may be held for bank clearance.
I accept Paypal, but due to the rampant increase of fraudulent buyers using their own credit cards to buy items through Paypal and then submitting bogus chargebacks, I reserve the right to refuse credit card payments from low feedback bidders. If you have any questions, please contact me.
posted on August 5, 2001 12:04:02 PM"I accept money orders/cashiers checks. Personal checks ok, but depending on your feedback record they may be held for bank clearance. I accept Paypal, but only payments funded from your balance account which are funds already in your Paypal account or funds received from your checking account. I will not accept Paypal payments funded from credit cards, unless you have good feedback ratings on Ebay and Paypal."
I like the above statement. The only thing I would change is the last sentence. I would change it to state "unless you have an established record with eBay and PayPal".
I just find that less intimidating". If you have been reading post here for long, you know how people feel about "demanding" TOS!
I would then put my reason for such a policy on my "about me" page with a link.
In the ad, I would point to that link with something like: "for a full explaination of the policy and why it has become necessary please view my policy using the link below". I would have the title of the link something like "Credit Card Policy".
The way your explaination is worded has a tendancy to "assume" the buyers are out to cheat you. As a buyer I do not like to feel I must prove myself to be honest. I know I am honest! I realize you do not know me so you do not know that, but it still bothers me to be assumed guilty before I have even committed a crime.
I am NOT offended even at a very strict policy that does not make mention of cheats, frauds and deadbeats! When those terms are used in an auction it just doesn't sound professional. Remember, as a buyer I do not know you, so I do not know that you are honest.
If you want to try and educate the PayPal buyers' community as to the loopholes and current scams and lack of protection afforded you by PP, go right ahead. However, I do recommend it be done somewhere besides your ad.
More than likely nobody will read all of it anyway. So you really are doing a lot of work for nothing. All the average buyer will see (in my opinion) is you are a difficult seller to work with so you have already set a "sour" tone for the transaction.
That's just my opinion. Take it for what's it worth....
posted on August 5, 2001 12:04:33 PM
Another method is not to mention Paypal at all in your TOS, then offer it to those you feel comfortable with in your EOA notices. This wouldn't work if you do very high volume, of course.
posted on August 5, 2001 12:07:23 PM
<<I would caution you, the more restrictive you make your TOS, the fewer bidders you will get. Compare the number of fraudulent claims you think you may get, and the amount of $ lost, vs. the number of bidders you're losing. Also, by detailing all of Paypal's loopholes, you're providing easy and convenient instructions for the crooks>>
Well the crooks already know the angles, so describing details will not turn honest buyers into crooks. I am only considering limiting credit card payments when I am having high dollar ($200 plus) auctions involving electronic items and digital cameras. Even then any buyer with decent feedback will still be able to use Paypal credit cards, its just the newbies I will be restricting.
I am willing to take credit card risks for small under $200 auctions, but not for large dollar amounts. Also by offering free shipping if newbie buyers use Bidpay, I am in effect paying their Bidpay fees so there shouldn't be a problem for them to sign up with Bidpay.
posted on August 5, 2001 12:37:48 PM
I didn't mention this in my original post, but I will now.
I truly understand your concern over bogus chargebacks.
I also know many sellers do not wish to include a return policy.
As a buyer, I am "cautious" of any seller who will NOT offer a return policy or guarantee of satisfaction...especially on high ticket items. Back to the 'ole "I don't know you"!
I absolutely refuse to make any internet purchase that does not allow me to use a credit card. I want to use a credit card to protect myself! Yep, if I purchase an item and it turns out NOT to be as advertised, I expect to be able to return it for a refund. I don't mind if the seller opts to hold out his/her fees and I don't get bent out of shape about not getting the postage back, but I do want to recoup as much of my money as possible.
In the event, I feel I have "been had" and if I cannot work with a seller, I will take the issue up with my credit card company and I will request a reverse of charges! It would be a last resort, but I would do it.
I honestly believe (not to rile any feathers here) that most buyers (and I truly believe professional cons are not yet the majorit) who do go for the chargeback do so because the seller has been less than professional and has totally refused to come up with an equitable solution to a problem. The "ask all questions before bidding since all sales or final" really doesn't instill confidence in that seller's merchandise OR business practices. Talk about putting up a red flag...
Remember, there are two sides to every "story" and somewhere in the middle is the truth.
posted on August 5, 2001 12:45:02 PM
<<I truly understand your concern over bogus chargebacks. I also know many sellers do not wish to include a return policy. As a buyer, I am "cautious" of any seller who will NOT offer a return policy or guarantee of satisfaction...especially on high ticket items. Back to the 'ole "I don't know you"!
I absolutely refuse to make any internet purchase that does not allow me to use a credit card. I want to use a credit card to protect myself>>
I agree with you 100%, and as a buyer I want to use credit cards too. As long as you had any sort of posituve feedback, I would be more than willing to let you use Paypal credit card funding to pay for my item. I have good feedback too, so would expect most sellers wouldn't have a problem accepting my use of a credit card.
It's only people with low or no feedback that I am limiting use of a credit card, and thats a business decision I am willing to live with. These newbies are free to use a credit card through Bidpay, and it won't cost them fees since I am offering free shipping if they use Bidpay. So hopefully all bases are covered, and if I get the occasional newbie who bypasses my auction...so be it. I will be on the lookout for good buyers like you with a established track record.
posted on August 5, 2001 12:59:28 PMrent20-Yes, it is your decision.
I still recommend putting the majority of the "how come this policy" on your "About Me" page if for no other reason than "esthetics". Why clutter the "perfect" ad?
posted on August 5, 2001 01:02:24 PM
<<I still recommend putting the majority of the "how come this policy" on your "About Me" page if for no other reason than "esthetics". Why clutter the "perfect" ad?>>
You are quite right, and I probably won't even bother to put a detailed reason on a seperate page. I will only allude to it briefly by saying due to the recent chargeback issues involving Paypal, I reserve the right to accept credit card payments from low feedback users.
posted on August 5, 2001 04:53:08 PM
This may yank a few chains, but why must we sellers put the buyer in the middle of our
disputes with PayPal? Either you accept PayPal or not.
When you go to the grocery store or shop at a web site, do you ever notice restrictions on how you can pay for something with your charge card? If the Visa logo is anywhere in sight, you use your Visa card, just the same as anyone else who has one. I know that's not exactly the same, but c'mon folks! Work your problems out with PayPal. You can't be that dependant on them, to let them walk all over you and still do business with them. If you don't like what they're doing, use someone else. Buyers don't care who they give their credit card to. Don't make them figure out if they meet up to your standards enough to use their cc at PayPal because you can bet PayPal will be telling them a different story.
posted on August 5, 2001 05:10:56 PM
Confucius say "One who shoots self in foot has lousy aim". OK I made that up!! If you are getting a lot of chargebacks on Paypal you really ought to look at what you are selling and how you are describing it in your auctions. I close many hundreds of paypal sales a month and have never had a chargeback for any reason. I am scrupulous about the descriptions, however, so there is never a reason for a complaint. Paypal is a service to both parties. If you are attracting pain in the butt buyers, then either change merchandise, describe it more accurately, or drop paypal altogether. A long winded TOS to a flaky buyer is just a long winded TOS. Won't do a thing to resolve your issue. I say HOORAY for Paypal as it is the cheapest merchant account available without all the hassle of a merchant account. I use it on my website as well.
posted on August 5, 2001 06:14:27 PM
Rockaroladotcom WOW!! I feel as though Confucius has spoken again. Don't believe I have ever seen a more diplomatic answer that nails the problem so completely.
[ edited by ragmop on Aug 5, 2001 06:15 PM ]
posted on August 5, 2001 08:03:59 PM
I have never offered PayPal, dropped Billpoint months ago, and for several months have only accepted CC payments via BidPay.
My sell through rate is consistently 80-90%, week after week, month after month.
I sell items in the $20 to $2,000+ range, and have NEVER had a customer make a stink over my payment TOS.
Sorry, but there's only one thing I hate more than a middleman, and that's a middleman that's greedy.
My advice, don't mention PayPal in your auctions and your problem will be solved.
And for those of you that say you won't bid on my auctions, no problem. If my feedback & long time selling rep isn't good enough for you, I'm probably better off without your biz.
posted on August 5, 2001 08:15:55 PM
I agree with kiawok butwe have a note in our TOS and EOA letters clearly stating that we don't accept Paypal. Never took Billpoint. Doing this has not negatively affected our sales at all. Just put your foot down and remove mention of Paypal from your auctions...you shouldn't feel you have to do anything that you are uncomfortable with.
I wouldn't state you'll offer it to some and not others...just refuse it and if someone asks look at them based on the merit of their feedback record.
posted on August 6, 2001 06:53:55 AM
Why give paypal FREE advertising by mentioning them at all. If any one requests to pay with paypal, AFTER AUCTION ENDS, just tell'em-
Very-Dear Sales-type-person,
I am not a paypal member, nor am I familliar with the fine details of their service, or the multitude of other simillar services available on-line. At this stage I do not wish to join. I have invested some time looking at their site and find it, the charges, and rules are difficult to find/understand.
respectfully, me
posted on August 6, 2001 07:15:01 AM
I accept every kind of payment (even traded goods for goods a couple of times) and have never had a problem with any from of payment. Perhaps I am just lucky. But I also offer a full "money back guarantee if not satisfied" including cost of shipping item back to me, so no one would ever have a reason to do a chargeback. I've only had one return and in that case I unknowingly misrepresented the item.
As a buyer, I certainly have my preference...which is to pay with Pay Pal. But I don't hit the back button just because someone doesn't accept electronic payments. I only bypass auctions where money orders are the only form of payment accepted because I don't like to be forced to pay a fee for the "priviledge" of buying. And don't get me started on what a rip off BidPay is for the USA buyer!
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
posted on August 6, 2001 08:19:56 AM
In my TOS, I say I accept only Checks and Money Orders. When my WBN is sent out, it says that I will accept paypal only if you have the money in your account from a previous transaction, or if you transfer funds directly to paypal from your bank account. I also say that I MAY accept credit card purchases from overseas (most of my items are $20 or less, so I still have not had to go over the $100 a month limit on credit cards. I have had no complaints, and only one person who tried to pay by credit card without letting me know first (since it was the 30th of the month and it still did not put me over the limit, I let it slide).
posted on August 6, 2001 08:48:32 AM
In my TOS, I say I accept only Checks and Money Orders. When my WBN is sent out, it says that I will accept paypal only if you have the money in your account from a previous transaction, or if you transfer funds directly to paypal from your bank account. I also say that I MAY accept credit card purchases from overseas (most of my items are $20 or less, so I still have not had to go over the $100 a month limit on credit cards. I have had no complaints, and only one person who tried to pay by credit card without letting me know first (since it was the 30th of the month and it still did not put me over the limit, I let it slide).
posted on August 6, 2001 09:02:44 AM
As a seller since 1998 I never took any online payments, and it hasnt hurt our business at all. As a buyer I will NOT bid on an item when the seller takes paypal, billpoint, etc. It seems sellers who accept these services charge outrageous shipping and handling fees. I bought a VHS copy of a movie last week. The seller who took check and MO only had a shipping fee of $3.50 for priority mail, and the seller that took paypal and billpoint was charging $4.75 for shipping. I know sellers must make up the fees, but no way am I paying for it.
posted on August 6, 2001 09:02:52 AM
These are for your EOA's rather than your tos because I missread but had typed it all out already:
FREE insurance if you pay by check or money order!
50 cents (to a dollar) OFF if you pay by check or money order!
Due to recent cc fraud, by paying for this transaction via PayPal or BillPoint, you agree not to chargeback any amount of your payment. (I don't like this one because it asks for trouble from people who don't even know about chargebacks.)
Empty your PayPal Account as often as possible - within reason, or they'll start charging us even for the transfers.
posted on August 6, 2001 09:16:43 AMThis is due to the rampant increase of fraudulent buyers using their own credit cards to buy items through Paypal, and then submitting bogus chargebacks with their credit card companies claiming a "quality of merchandise" issue.
rent20, I'd like to suggest that your analysis of the problem is mistaken. There is very little fraud opportunity in quality of merchandise chargebacks, because the merchandise must be returned in the condition it was received, and returned at buyer's expense.
"credit card fraud" involves the use of stolen cards, or reporting things which were received as not received. Both of these are covered by PayPal's seller protection plan.
posted on August 6, 2001 10:55:07 AM
Q: "Most diplomatic way to discourage Paypal in TOS?"
A: 3 words: DON'T LIST PAYPAL (anywhere in your description)
Why do people fret so much about "being diplomatic" about not accepting some form of payment? And why to people go to such great lengths to either treaten or apologize for not taking a specific form.
The SIMPLEST thing you can do is just not include the words "PayPal" anywhere in your item description or terms. That's it... Why is it so hard?
Just like you don't list "Sorry, due to the fluxuating exchange rates, I can't take Mexican Pesos" and "Sorry, due to the potential for counterfit bills, I can't accept $1000 bills".
If someone asks you after the fact (of winning), if you can take PayPal, just reply and state that you accept the payment forms listed in your terms. No apologies, no lengthy "justificaions" and no threats.
posted on August 6, 2001 11:26:06 AM
One of the reasons people pay with credit cards is because of the protection afforded them. A statement such as "due to recent cc fraud, by paying for this transaction via PayPal or BillPoint, you agree not to chargeback any amount of your payment" would make me think that the seller is a scoundrel.
If taking PP, BP, or other methods of credit card purchases is too much of a risk for you, then you just drop them altogether. You can't just cobble together rules for accepting credit cards so that they only benefit you while leaving the buyer completely vulnerable.
posted on August 6, 2001 05:06:24 PM
Do not accept PayPal. I only accept PayPal when people ask and my monthly amount is less than $100 after their purchase. Makes life easy.
Have I lost sales because of this? I don't think so. If I have, so what?
posted on August 6, 2001 10:29:59 PM
i'd write it in terms of positives:
i accept:
- money orders/cashiers checks
- personal checks are fine, but depending on your feedback they may be held for bank clearance
- bidpay
- paypal from funds already in your Paypal account, or funds received from your checking account
- etc.
posted on August 7, 2001 09:07:47 AM
* * * QUESTION: As a seller, can you even TELL whether your PayPal buyer paid you from his PP account balance vs. credit card?
posted on August 7, 2001 09:25:41 AMAs a seller, can you even TELL whether your PayPal buyer paid you from his PP account balance vs. credit card?
Yes, at the bottom of the transaction page it will tell you if it is from Non-credit card funds or not.
If you don't want to be paid with PayPal don't offer it. How simple can it be. Personally I like receiving payments and making payments via PayPal. The selection is far to great for me to purchase money orders anymore.
I'm curious how many sellers refuse to accept PayPal, but when they are a buyer they hit a few keystrokes instead of writing a check or purchasing a money order.
