posted on August 27, 2001 03:20:11 PM new
I have seen this topic surface occassionally, but I would like to throw the BUYER side into it!
I received a package today that was UNinsured and had a USPS meter stamp for $3.86 on it....hence a total "ACTUAL" shipping amount of $3.86. The only problem is the seller confirmed that the ACTUAL postage would be $6.45 + $1.10 for insurance which resulted in an overcharge on shipping of $3.69.....ON A $9.99 AUCTION!! That just increased his "yield" by 37% had I not emailed and complained. Me theenks MOST sellers who overstate shipping assume buyers won't complain about the proverbial "buck or two".....and probably don't!
Is it possible that some buyers operate with the same assumption on their purchases?
Granted, on a $100+ win, the $3 wouldn't mean much, but on a $10-$20 item those little "oops" from the sellers side eat up a profit margin quickly....and it happens WAY TOO OFTEN!
I will give this seller credit for agreeing to correct the "error" and has promised to send a check for the overcharge....we will see if he follows thru.
Just needed to vent a little.....
Pack Rat's Attic on eBay AND in real life brick & mortar!
posted on August 27, 2001 03:56:04 PM new
Pack Rat:
I guess this is where we can debate whether the phrase "Actual Shipping" means actual postage paid, or whether it means the total cost to actually ship the item.
In your case the Seller has agreed that his figures were in error and will be sending you a refund. However, how would you have responded if he had come back and said that the Actual Shipping was the higher amount?
posted on August 27, 2001 10:50:49 PM new
Just because the seller didn't insure your package through the Post Office doesn't necessarily mean he didn't insure it at all---he might have used UPIC, or a blanket insurance policy that covers his shipments as well as his inventory, or he might "self-insure" his shipments (paying claims out of his profits).
Shipping/packaging supplies, labor, payment service expenses, and costs such as metering services have to be paid by the buyer SOMEHOW---either in his bid price or in his shipping cost---and all too often now, the bid price is **way** too low to cover those expenses.
This is why it's not a good idea for sellers to say "Buyer pays actual postage" in listings. They should either state a set dollar amount, or state a maximum dollar amount, or give the estimated weight and tell interested bidders to email for EXACT shipping costs before bidding.
posted on August 28, 2001 01:44:33 AM new
This never ceases to amaze me...sellers who do what was described here. The seller knows that 7.55 was paid for shipping, yet allows the package to be shipped with 3.86 clearly on the shipping label. Uh, don't you THINK the buyer is going to be a little perturbed? $1 over is one thing...$2 or more is a bit much.
Yes, the seller could have purchased insurance elsewhere, and YES, the seller needs to recoup some monies for materials, but c'mon people. A little common sense goes a long way.
"Who's tending the bar? Sniping works up a thirst"
posted on August 28, 2001 05:57:37 AM new
overcharging for shipping sucks as does handling fees, in my opinion.theres nothing worse that paying 5 bucks for priority just to have the item arrive in a free priority bos, with free priority tape with a 3.95 mailing label on it, nothing els no packing etc...... i NEVER charge handling fees and NEVER charge more than the actual rate. I FEEL that the handling fees, whatever some may claim them to be, should come out of sale price.........the only exception i would consider is if it had to be crated up or something labor intensive like that. this BS some seller give about waiting in line at p.o and gas etc is just that to me BS....that should come out of the sale $$$$....in my opinion and thta show it happens on my auctions
posted on August 28, 2001 07:40:19 AM new
I sell clothing, and the 'cost' to me for shipping it is at most, 30 cents. I take that out of my profits. Yeah, sometimes it takes all of the profit, but sometimes it takes less than 1% of the profits. In my business it all balances out.
posted on August 28, 2001 08:10:45 AM new
Some really good points in response....and a few that once again serve to attempt to defend a seller who KNOWINGLY overcharges on shipping.
"Buyers have to pay seller costs SOMEHOW"???I must have missed that "rule" when I signed up on eBay 3 years ago! This isn't haggleNbaggle.com!! This is an AUCTION! If your bids don't go high enough...START higher...don't expect me (as a buyer) to pay your EXPECTED profit!
Maybe sellers could adopt a new TOS:
"Shipping and handling will be determined at the end of the auction based on whether my widget sold for what I expected it to; whether you are making me pay for paypal fees or waiting for your potentially bad check to bounce; whether I decide to use NEW bubble wrap or recycle last weeks birdcage comics page; whether I use FREE USPS supplies or do the dumpster dive thing(which would run up my dry cleaning bill); whether I decide to take the risk that the PO will play football with THIS package and self-insure (but CHARGE the buyer for real insurance) or let the PO make the "profit";
and of course: the final "handling" fee will be determined based on whether my spouse treated me properly last night! I will email you a total once I calculate all the above into what I....in my own opinion, not the 2269 people that viewed my auction....decided the widget should sell for! Please be sure to have my money in my hands within 1 hour! Thanks and DO come bid on my auctions again!"
At least there would be some TRUTH in advertising then!
posted on August 28, 2001 08:38:17 AM new
It never ceases to amaze me that buyers willingly agree to a payment for something that is nothing less than a tacit acceptance to the TOTAL price paid to receive something.
How does this amount now appear to be a massive ripoff? Is the value of the item massively depreciated by a sticker on a box that has an ink pattern somewhat different than you expected? Are you now CEO of the seller's company and dictating post facto sales terms?
This sort of whiney wet diaper complaint is why sellers do charge MORE, because the amount of time to cut and mail you a tiny check to soothe a false sense of outrage is far higher than the amount you are bellyaching about.
YOU are the one at fault because you are violating an agreement you already made.
posted on August 28, 2001 08:53:13 AM new
Yes I will whine when a seller is BLATENTLY ripping off buyers! The last response of it being a minor amount is EXACTLY what the problem is: IT IS A 37% INCREASE IN THE TOTAL COST OF THE ITEM!! I dont know what profit margin YOU operate on, but that isn't peanuts in the overall scheme! I am certain that if the last poster received an item that they had bid to $200 and found they had been overcharged $74.00 for shipping THEY would be doing some whining!
Plus you missed the whole idea in the first post:
The seller confirmed that the ACTUAL cost of postage & insurance was to total $7.55 when it actually was $3.86!
Maybe if enough buyers quit putting up with the s&h ripoffs and force sellers to waste their time and energies on "piddly" refunds, the sellers who abuse this will learn it doesnt pay!
Man I really loved eBay when it WAS a community instead of a badly run flea market!
posted on August 28, 2001 09:05:42 AM new
Just to clarify, was the "actual" postage/shipping listed in the auction? Or given to you in email later [ie maybe you would not have bid if you knew it was going to be that much].
Or, did they say upfront it would be $6.45 + $1.10...and it only got annoying when the box arrived, clearly not costing this much?
I personally look at the stated shipping in auction ads, and if I can't reconcile the amount with what I assume it will actually cost, I move on. If it's not stated, I email first. eBay IS a buyer's market and we can stand up for what we think is fair by bidding elsewhere.
posted on August 28, 2001 09:56:22 AM new
If the word was actual SHIPPING then you have no leg to stand on. If it was actual POSTAGE, then you have a legitimate beef.
Shipping is ALL COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH GETTING THE ITEM FROM MY PLACE OF BUSINESS TO YOUR DELIVERY ADDRESS.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Shipping includes:
* postage charges (gotta pay someone to cart it across country/world).
* packaging costs (you cannot just plunk the widget in the mail, sorry).
* costs of getting the item from my place of business to a shipping point (I may have another courier take this item, or have hired help, or reimburse myself for this service, plus gas, etc.).
Most people will call this shipping and handling, but as you can clearly see the word shipping alone is completely valid as well.
If this is a sticking point with you in the future, you should ASK BEFORE YOU BID, if it is not clearly stated in the auction. Don't make any assumptions.
posted on August 28, 2001 09:59:38 AM new
I've had this experience as a buyer and a seller.
As a buyer, the seller put actual shipping in his description, then the eoa stated $8.00. I told the seller I knew actual shipping was $3.95 because I've shipped these items myself. He apologized and said that was his template and not to send the $8, just send the $3.95. True or not about the template, he dropped the price.
As a seller I've had buyers moan and groan about paying insurance and/or priority mail and whenever I've dropped my price to accommodate them, I wind up paying more at the post office window. Do any of them ever reimburse me or offer to? No way! But let me make a mistake in quoting and oh boy! The inspection of the postage sticker puts their dander up. My spouse has taken packages to the post office for me on many occasion and had forgotten to buy insurance. It was very unintentional, but I had to cut the buyer a check and mail it the next day to avoid screaming mimis in my mailbox.
I think if your seller offered to refund, then you should have no complaint.
posted on August 28, 2001 10:02:47 AM new
This is a topic on which we are all NEVER going to agree.
Person 1 defines "actual shipping" = actual USPS postage.
Person 2 defines "actual shipping" = actual USPS postage plus cost of box + perhaps some packing materials.
Person 3 defines "actual shipping" = actual USPS postage, plus box & packing material, + gas to USPS, cost for Grapico & BBQ pork rinds eaten on way to USPS, cost of Tums to attack the heartburn gotten from eating the BBQ pork rinds & Grapico on the way to USPS.
And, there's even worse news on the way. ebay has been holding community discussions on this very issue. I had a feeling the "handling fee" guidelines were a start in a direction to try & control some of the anger building out there over shipping charges.
Trust in one thing...if ebay makes the decision, we will ALL be inagreement that the policy will be a disaster for ALL sellers AND buyers.
thepackratsattic,
Have you emailed the seller to ask why the actual is so different from what was quoted?
Finally, if the seller had quoted you $2.50 and ended up paying $6.00, would you have VOLUNTARILY offered to pay the additional amount the seller spent?
posted on August 28, 2001 10:14:46 AM new
"Yes I will whine when a seller is BLATENTLY ripping off buyers! "
OH COME ON. Don't you think this is just a wee bit paranoid? I sell jewelry. Silver, mostly. I price it fairly and ship for 1.25. Most of my "good" competition charges 2.00. Most of my "bad" competition starts the jewelry at $1.00 and has s/h of 3.95.
IT'S A GIMMICK. It is DESIGNED to prevent re-listing, and to make buyers "THINK" they are getting a deal. IMHO any buyer that CAN'T see through this deserves to pay inflated shipping. No one sells on ebay to lose money!
Just last week, I had a deadbeat that backed out on a 6.00 piece of jewelry. My shipping charge was 1.25 making a total of 7.25. The bidder emailed me that she was "backing out" because she had found the piece for "under $5.00." I checked her auction bidding list and she HAD found an identical item for $4.89 BUT shipping was 3.95 making the total $8.84. Now, is this seller SCREWING the buyer because shipping will cost the buyer .45 postage plus the envelope and labels? I don't think so, the buyer is an clearly an IDIOT.
posted on August 28, 2001 10:16:47 AM new
I had one like that the other day. I read the international shipping rates wrong and charged $13.00 for S&H. It cost me $19.00 and the item was only like $5.00, so I lost a buck on the overall deal.
posted on August 28, 2001 10:25:12 AM new
Although differing from what eBay means--actual postage only can mean what the person actually charges, and you still agreed to it. If you can, stop ranting long enough to determine if the item with shipping was still a fair value (why else would you agree to do it is the $64,000 question). If it is, you have no sympathy from me. If it's not, what were you thinking when you bid? I don't agree with the seller's tactics, but he didn't hold a gun to your head when you clicked to bid.
posted on August 28, 2001 10:35:04 AM new
EVENTER: Thanks for injecting some humor into this thread...AND some sanity! Yes, there has been a couple of times over the past 3 years that I have offered to reimburse a seller who understated his shipping. The two I remember were pleasently suprised and thanked me for the offer without taking me up on it. Course that was back when eBay WAS community and buyers and sellers at least acted like they respected each other! In the past year+ I have only seen a few times when the actual postage was off more than 50 cents in my favor.
peiklk: "ask b4 you bid" is a nice theory....IF there is time for receipt and response! How about a BETTER solution:
PUT IT IN YOUR AUCTION & TELL ME SO I CAN BID INTELLIGENTLY WITHOUT NEEDLESS EMAILS?
You are also advocating playing semantics with the auction ads...."actual" means yadda yadda yadda. Well if sellers WOULD spell out what "actual" means to them, there wouldn't be a problem would there? Course it would also curtail the potential for s&h padding!
posted on August 28, 2001 10:52:19 AM new
If the amount of shipping/handling/fees/night on the town is listed in the auction, if and when you bid on the item, you agree to those terms. I have always been tempted to list an item real cheap with $100 is shipping/handling/Beer charge and see if I got any bidders. Of course I wouldn't MAKE the buyer pay that amount, but it would be very interesting to see if they did.
posted on August 28, 2001 10:57:36 AM new
thepackratsattic -- Asking before you bid is not a theory -- it is proper buyer practice. If there isn't enough time for you to get an answer -- MOVE ALONG to the next auction.
As a seller, I provide a U.S. Shipping charge. If they want international shipping, they have to ask.
As a buyer, I won't bid if the information is not provided up front.
posted on August 28, 2001 12:37:08 PM new
I think we're seeing sellers who are desperately trying to make money by inflating the shipping costs, since bids and sales are down.
It's amazing the number of sellers I see whose items are selling in the $3-$7 range, and have a sell-thru of 10% or so. They make up for the lack of sales by increasing the shipping, when they should be raising their opening prices instead.
posted on August 28, 2001 12:46:22 PM newThey make up for the lack of sales by increasing the shipping, when they should be raising their opening prices instead.
Unless you only expect to get one bid, how does raising the opening bid help make you more money?
posted on August 28, 2001 12:59:03 PM new
The "raise the opening bid to cover all costs" thing is a complete falacy. Sorry, but it's true.
The bid amount is the amount for the item. If we had the luxury of a retail store and didn't have bidding for our items, we would take all costs + markup and get a sales price. We cannot do that. The item pretty much stands alone here.
You're generalizing when you say people charging more for shipping and handling than their acutal postage are "inflating" those costs. That's not true at in most cases.
In a better seller's market, the seller could choose to let real and tangible costs slide, or "eat them". When the market is down they can no longer afford to eat those costs, so they have to pass them on to the buyer. Just like any business.
But, for the benefit of everyone, the bid price should be for the item only. Inflating the bid price skews the perceived value of the item down the road to others. Plus it skews the perception of the buyer.
If your costs are less than mine and you can sell a widget for $5.00 and I have to sell for $10.00 just to break even, then you're going to sell more than me. But if I can sell for $5.00 and keep shipping and handling costs where they belong (in post-sale S&H charges), then I fare better in the long run.
posted on August 28, 2001 07:36:11 PM new
Although he treads heavily, I mostly agree with Thepackratsattic. Some sellers are tacky about what they charge for shipping charge versus the actual amount it costs to ship.
I try to keep in mind my costs, but I would be embarrassed to add more than a quarter to the shipping cost on the meter stamp.
I have frequently been charged $5 shipping for a video, only to have it come via media mail. We all know how much that costs... about a buck!
Sniping works up a thirst"