posted on April 30, 2002 02:30:59 PM
Ebay sellers has been hit with non paying bidders. I have over 300 positives and in the past 2 months I have got negged 3 times because the ebay let's non paying bidders to neg. sellers. These people never contact me, send the wrong form of payment, are just ignore the problem.
I do not understand why ebay will let this happen. I have emailed safe harbor and try to get this negs. removed and they will do nothing at all. I believe NPB should not be free to post feedback at all.
I am at my wits end and just today I had to send 7 NPB alerts to the bidders and most of the time they will not even answer them. And then when I post a nagative they come back and and neg me. This thing is getting out of hand.
I even try to get help from the safe harbor forum, and all I get is abuse from them and no understanding. I am finding myself canceling bid on bidders that have zero feedback. I hate to do that since everyone started with a zero.
Is anyone else having the same problems?
posted on April 30, 2002 02:49:29 PM
I haven't had too many problems with "0" feedback buyers but I have had my share of non paying bidders posting those retalitory neg. feedback. I also agree that when a seller files a non paying bidder charge, the buyer's privelege of posting feedback should go into limbo until they have completed the auction at which time they would be allowed to post feedback or lose the privelege totally when the 2nd step (final value fee charges) are filed. I don't see this as being too much to ask of ebay......and the fact that they don't do something about it undermines what the feedback system was supposed to do in the first place.
posted on April 30, 2002 02:56:05 PM
Why should ebay remove negative feedback from deadbeats when they get $9,000,000 a year (made up amount) from Square Trade to have them remove it?
Nice racket ebay runs there, and we're all suckers for playing along so nicely.
I too have tried to get ebay to remove negative feedback, even in obvious cases, and they refuse.
Let's see, seller files for FVF refund, negs the deadbeat, deadbeat retaliated leaving seller a neg. Ebay thinks that is too complicate to figure if the negatve by the buyer is justified or not!?
Ebay lost 30% of my business and I told them so, they turned their nose up at me. Now they are going to lose 90% of my business. I am using AW Universal Search to find the items on other sites to buy (not Yahoo or Amazon!!), and hopefully some sellers are investing time in those sites so I can buy from them.
posted on April 30, 2002 03:21:22 PM
They have been turning up their noses at me also. The buyers do not pay fees, I do. I usually owe ebay over 200 dollars a month and they do not take that in consideration.
They said they would remove one negative if the person did not contact them.
I received a notice that the deadbeat had not answered them and they still will not remove the negative.
This one deadbeat is still buying and posting on the forum, and has even gone as far as to get friend to bid on my auctions only to not pay and neg me.
Ebay has the monopoly on online auctions and no one out there can top them.
I am thinking of going for a web page and see how that will work for me.
It could not cost me any more to do it that way, I just am not sure a web page will be better.
I am losing sales and had at least 3 bidders say that they will not buy from me because of these negatives.
I tell them that is fine and if they take the 3 negatives from non paying bidders as truth and totally ignore all the over 300 positives that I do not want to sell to them anyway.
I will be a sore in safe harbors sides as long as they let this unjustice continue.
It is not right for ebay to let these deadbeats dictate to them and let them get away with it. They just need to modify the feedback rules, it's as easy as that.
They are ruining my good business.I bet ya the ones that I had to send a NPB alert out today will neg me also, and still ebay will let them.
I wonder if hiring an attorney would help or only cose me more money.
posted on April 30, 2002 03:36:16 PM
You won't have a legal case against ebay because you are allowed to have your feedback private. Problem is, your rating number is also private.
In the summer when it is slow I am going to experiement having private feedback, then put my feedback rating in "location" in bright letters/numbers. Then I will copy and paste the last twenty feedbacks, minus any negatives" and put that in my auction. Do you ever see on a movie video "this movie sucks"? You just see the best quotes. That's what selling is about, putting your best face foward.
posted on April 30, 2002 04:12:59 PM
You can hire a lawyer and perhaps get something done.
If the feedback is libel and false, your attorney can put ebay on notice. Once ebay is notified about the statement and refuses to remove it, name them as a co-defendant.
The ability to "hide" your feedback is not a bar to libel, because you still have damages from lost sales from having to hide your feedback due to the libel.
posted on April 30, 2002 04:15:04 PM
I have been selling for over a year and have had only one non-paying bidder. Of course, I am NOT a commercial company, and I am a little more generous when people have taken a bit more time to pay than I have stated in my auction. Regardless, I don't let them go a long time, and have had very good results when I send them a "gentle" reminder.
posted on April 30, 2002 04:15:11 PM
Tell me how I can do that. I do really want to make my feedback private. I would like for people to give me the benefit of doubt.
I was going along selling and somehow got the first nasty one, and from there it boomeranged.
Ebay encourages us to post feedback so others will block them, if they want from their auctions.
I really think I will just ignore all the NPB, and the ones who never contact me, send an NPB alert, and file for my FVF, and relist. To me that is better than getting all the negs from deadbeats.
To heck with ebays rules when they do not enforce those rules, and charge us 20 dollars
so than can get more money before they do anything. So why should we members have to jump through all their hoops just to try to get ebay to enforce the rules they set for us to follow in the first place.
posted on April 30, 2002 05:14:39 PM
If you list ebay as a co-defendant, ebay will argue why didn't you put your feedback private right off the bat? Afterall, we know we might recieve negative feedbacks right?
Ebay may also claim that no proof was provided to them that this was false feedback. One thing ebay will tell you is, you have to take the deadbeat to court and send ebay the court records to have the negative removed.
To make your feedback private, just go to your feedback page and click on "help." You can also try it at "my ebay."
If you have private feedback, you better be a person who ships fast because people will look up your feedback when they wait for their package, see it is Private and think you're scamming others, then watch for the avenlanche of threats, complaints of fraud and daily emails.
I once put my feedback private. The next day I got a negative from a deadbeat. I asked him why he left me a negative if he didn't even send me money. He said he saw my feedback is private and thought I was scamming others. Not sure how someone can think a private feedback is a reason to leave someone a neg, but ebay tolerates this abuse.
posted on April 30, 2002 08:04:25 PM
I don't understand why you would want to keep your feedback private; that would make me very suspicious. Just looked at your feedback and most of it is glowing. The 6 negatives all sound to me like "out of control jerks" that used retaliatory feedback. As long as you keep your responses business-like you should be okay.
posted on April 30, 2002 09:13:41 PM
I am guessing that the way you go about leaving feedback to the deadbeats may be faulty. I am going to assume that you e-mail these people to tell them the deal is off and you are going to neg them.
Here is what I do and over the three years I have been doing online auctions, I have had only one retailtory neg.
First, the winning bidder gets a personal e-mail (WBN), never an automated letter or response.
If no payment is received in 14 days (I give 14 days even though ebay says 7 because in my experience, many payments take that long to come in the mail) I send a friendly reminder e-mail, again personal not automated, asking the bidder to e-mail me to let me know when I can expect payment. Many times winning bidders accidently delete the original e-mail of just forget. This will get about 50% of the bidders to send payment. I give two days after this. If no e-mail, then I file NPB. Usually when I get to this point, the person is already a deadbeat, but I do get some payments, I would say less then 5% though. After the required 10 days is up, I file for FVF. Then I give a neg and leave it alone. The last e-mail I send to any deadbeat is the friendly reminder one. The other two ebay generates, but you should not send one at that time in addition to. That will tend to upset people and make then want to retaliate. I would say in an average month, I have to file 3 FVF and give 3 negs, so in many ways, I am lucky on not getting retalitory negs, but then I do not encourage the deadbeats either.
Also, I wouldn't make my feedback private, just respond to the negs in a professional manner stating the simple truth. Like this is a retalition neg for one I gave for non-payment. If you make your feedback private, your sales will become nearly extinct. I never bid on any items from a seller that has there feedback private. Why? Because the only reason it is private is because they have negatives they need to cover up making me assume that if I send my money to this person, I will not receive the item that I bid upon.
[ edited by caffeitalia on Apr 30, 2002 09:19 PM ]
posted on May 1, 2002 12:06:31 AM
Leaving negative feedback for deadbeat bidders puts the seller at risk. It's no wonder more sellers refuse to leave negs for non-payment. I do (occasionally) file for FVF fees. I sent out 15 or so NPB alerts yesterday.
Once you have several hundred feedbacks, an occasional neg is meaningless. Everybody gets problem customers. And I'm not a "full refund plus shipping because the dress was too small" kind of guy.
posted on May 1, 2002 08:50:22 AM
There are definitely more newbies and NPBs out there. Fortunately, most of mine are the type who never respond to WBNs or other email. It's like they dropped off the earth, which means they don't leave neg. FB either.
posted on May 1, 2002 12:04:09 PMTell me how I can do that. I do really want to make my feedback private. I would like for people to give me the benefit of doubt.
People won't give you the benefit of a doubt. Most people think those that have private fb are scammers.
Keep your FB public. Right now, most buyers won't even check your feedback since it's over 300. But if you make it private that (314) after your id will be replaced by (private) and people will check your fb, see some recent negs in your summary and wonder what what the hell you're up to. They won't be able to tell that the negs were retalitory.
Also, don't respond to slightly critical positives. People, generally, don't read positives. They check for neutrals and negs and pass by the positives. But, when you respond to a positive, that draws the viewers attention to the critical praise. And if they see enough mentions of slow delivery they start to wonder if it really is the PO's fault or yours.
posted on May 1, 2002 03:44:18 PM
When I get a non-paying bidder, I do the NPB form and the final credit form. The final credit form gets people thrown off eBay and I believe that's the ONLY thing you can do. When I first started with eBay I had 3 auctions close the the high bidders never pay. I left negative feedback and they called me a fraud and a thief. Unfortunately for them, I kept all my correspondence to them and from them and could prove them liars. Even with all that proof sent to them, eBay never removed the 3 negatives.
Then I just started only going for an auction refund. Two people have been thrown off eBay. I had one email me indignantly after he was thrown off for non-payment & final value credit forms had been finished, telling me payment had been sent almost a month after the auction was over. Not once did he contact me. I filled out a payment reminder and still no email from him. Two more emails to him asking him if he had any intention of paying and still no answer. I then started with the official route. About 3 days after receiving his email I received his payment, check dated 3 weeks earlier but envelop postmarked 2 days earlier. I told him this in a letter sent to him with a CC to safeharbor. About a week and a half later, he contritely emailed me (after check cleared) and asked me if I would remove the non-paying bidder status. I did and he was back to bidding on eBay. I hope he learned a lesson.
posted on May 2, 2002 12:20:39 PM
Thank you all for your great comments and support. I had an auction close on March 6 with a high bidder. At once they started harassing me when I emailed them 10 days later and ask them if they intended to pay.
They paid using billpoint. I was out of town when the payment receipt was sent to me. I used my sisters computer to log on to my account and informed them I was out of town on an emergency and that my mom was very ill and I would ship as soon as I returned home.
That was not good enough and the high bidder started emailing me saying I was a fraud, and stated if they had read my feedback they would not have bid, and they did not care that my mom was ill and they did not want me crying to them about my problem.
I mailed on Monday the day after I returned home. I email her and told her I had mailed the item,I emailed from ebay at the auction site that they won my auction since she said that she was not getting my emails.
Today I received another nasty email saying I did not email her, and she had filed a fraud against me. I believe the only reason she bid was to harass me. I also believe this is not from a person that wanted the item she won. She only bid so she could give me a hard time.
It's just getting worse and worse, and people from the forum keeps telling me to change my ID. I am sure that no matter how many times I change my ID these deadbeats will only follow me.
I will keep my feedback public. I only wish that ebay would be of more hepl. Ebay does not care one teeny bit about me paying them over 200 dollars a month in fees. They will not protect us from these deatbeats, and the mess never seems to get better.
posted on May 2, 2002 01:55:07 PM
Really a non paying bidder warning is nothing till the 10 days are up and you finish the process for final value fee,this just gives the buyers a boost to pay or lose out,Real good thing to have for sellers- We posted 8 just today for people that havnt paid for over 2 weeks
posted on May 2, 2002 02:05:13 PM
Back in 1998 when I was selling WWF action figures my deadbeat percentage was 50% or more. It was nothing for me to sell 100 items a week and get paid for 50 if I was lucky. 99% were kids using their parents accounts, and their parents would complain when I reported them. I wish I had all the money I lost in insertion fees. eBay gets rich off deadbeats. Things are no better today than when that 13 year old kid bid on millions of dollars worth of merchandise.
posted on May 2, 2002 04:01:00 PM
Do not assume I am a bad seller or that I send nasty or threaten the bidders that I send a NPB form to. I am nice and I even apologize if they are not getting the point.
I only ask if they still want the item and if not I will relist. I know better than to tell them I will neg them if they do noy pay.
This person I am dealing with now is not an understanding person. Even after I explained to her that I was away from my home before her payment was received, and I would send the item as soon as I returned home. I also told her I would refund if she had rather not wait for me to ship. She did not reply. I intentionally sent the email from ebays site since she told me over and over that I was not emailing her.
I also state in my TOS that payment should reach me in 10 days and to email me within 3 days of auctions end. She did none of that, and did not send payment until 12 days.
I give my bidders more than 10 days very often. I will work with anyone if they let me know what is going on. I know bad things happen.
I am working with a bidder now that never contacted me, never sent payment after 6 weeks. Finally after I sent a NPB form, filed for FVF, and then left a negative she negged me back and told me she had problems and had to change her server and email address. No wonder she did not get my emails, and she did not bother to inform me that she had changed things.
I did email her after I could find her, and told her if she wants to continue the transaction, and we both removed the negatives, I would work with her. So now everything is going to be okay, I HOPE.
Does that sound that I am a nasty person and threaten people with a negative? I don't think so.
First I wait 14 days, then I send a reminder after 3 days, I wait another 10 days and send a NPB alert, then I wait another 7 days to file for FVF, after that I leave a negative. I follow all of ebays rules, the problem is with bidders winning, wasting my time and retaliate for no reason. Ebay will not enforce their own rules and leave sellers open for attacks and it never ends from there.
posted on May 2, 2002 05:44:31 PM
I am glad someone started this Topic because last week I had 3 NPB on three different items. I have received only 1 negative Feedback from an item Sold at Half.com, and when I contacted the person who left it - they admitted that the comment was a mistake - since they didn't contact me first and Ebay Still refused to remove it. I could go to Square Trade - but paying $20.00 to resolve what Ebay can do themselves annoys me.
I think with my NPB from Last week I will file the reports with Ebay and move on - I have seen great sellers with 48 negative feed backs from Deadbeats and trouble makers and I don't want to end up like them.
Does anybody know how comments get converted? Is that through Square Trade?
I see in peoples feedback 6 neutrals were converted to not registered?
posted on May 2, 2002 07:47:02 PM
Yes it's Square Trade but you have to pay 20 dollars and it is still not promised to remove feedback.
The only way for ebay will NARU someone is after they get 3 NPB alerts and they still will not remove the negative even after the deadbeats are kicked off.
I only had 2 negatives until 2 months ago and now I have 6 and those are from NPB. Ebay does not care about sellers. We are the ones that pay fees, the bidders do not, and no matter how many NPB we have to deal with is our problem. Ebay will not help.
All they have to do is modify the feedback rules so we all can be protested, bidders and seller alike.
I am dealing with a nasty person, she has the item, she stopped payment, and now I have to pay 20 dollars to get this person off my back. And she has promised to neg me no matter what.
Go to the Safe Harbor forum on ebay, and the feedback forum and read what others are saying about the entire problems with NBP. These people are great for answers. It does not help, but at least you can VENT.
posted on May 2, 2002 08:53:59 PM
>>...when I emailed them 10 days later and ask them if they intended to pay...
There is no reason to ask a buyer with whom you have a legally binding contract if they intend to pay. What they "intend" is irrelevant. There may be many reasons why you have not received payment, some legitimate, some not.
The rules here are no different than standard billing correspondence via postal mail. Simply send the buyer an invoice via e-mail (I use the eBay-generated invoice from the link in the End of Auction message they send). Do NOT include any personal comments or remarks, as they are also irrelevant (would you quickly pay a bill from Staples if they added the remark: "Do you intend to pay this???".
If you receive no reply and/or the invoice isn't paid within XX days, send a second invoice. If no further communication is received from the buyer or payment is not forthcoming, then no more contact with that buyer is required and you have met all of your obligations.
When you file a final credit form with eBay to refund your final value fee, include a non-emotional comment to the effect that (user_id) failed to respond to two invoices and that no further communication has been received. You will not receive negative feedback, because it is virtually guaranteed that the buyer will no longer be a registered user within 24-48 hours.
For myself, eBay has been very responsive in this situation on two occasions -- the results have been identical each time. They do not like to have the money they collected from you taken away, whether the buyer is a deadbeat, or a tornado hit their house, or their kid installed Doom on their computer and screwed it up, whatever the reason, it doesn't matter. eBay likes to know who is naughty and who is nice. Part of your job is to cooly and professionally let them know. It then becomes their problem, not yours.
posted on May 2, 2002 09:30:38 PM
"You will not receive negative feedback, because it is virtually guaranteed that the buyer will no longer be a registered user within 24-48 hours."
It has to be the THIRD final value fee request from UNIQUE users before eBay yanks them, the third one will cause them to be NARU instantly. Which is why I always leave feedback BEFORE I file the final value fee request. If your request gets them the boot then you will not be able to leave the feedback.
I have this same issue ALL the time, I have 62 Negatives and 54 are from non-paying bidders who I left negative feedback on. I also have 20132 positives, but I think that the 62 negatives jump out more then the positives do and I have no doubt it costs me business, especially with new users.
I use to get real uptight about taking the negs, I mean it really is unfair. After a million attempts and no success, I gave up. I have not bothered to complain about it for the last couple of years. At least you can respond to the comments that are left now. For years you couldn't do that.
I have considered not leaving negatives anymore and just filing non-paying bidder complaints, but I feel an obligation to the community. I think other sellers should know they are dealing with a deadbeat!
When it is all said and done their isn't anything you can do about it and eBay isn't going to do a thing about it so you may as well just accept and try not to let it bother you.
posted on May 2, 2002 09:57:01 PM
>>"It has to be the THIRD final value fee request from UNIQUE users before eBay yanks them, the third one will cause them to be NARU instantly."
Presumably this was the case in each of the two occasions I mentioned. eBay turned both user id's into virtual fairy dust faster than I would have believed. They were also very pleasant in their correspondence with me and expressed their thanks for notifying them.
>>"...I feel an obligation to the community. I think other sellers should know they are dealing with a deadbeat!"
I do respect your noble sentiment, and please don't take this the wrong way, but frankly -- that isn't your job. Consider every negative feedback you leave as being equivalent to posting a notice on your brick & mortar store's bulletin board discussing the problems you had with a particular customer. I doubt very much you'd do that. If you had a problem with a buyer, you'd tell a cop. In this case, that's eBay.
Simply because eBay has given sellers the ability to leave negative feedback for buyers doesn't mean the seller should do so. eBay states in their usage guidelines that negative feedback is intended mainly for buyers, not sellers. To me, this is understandable -- no seller with survival in mind wants to run the risk of antagonizing someone with the power to damage their reputation.
If 54 out of your 62 negative postings are the direct result of your policing, I presume the point has been made. And to be completely honest, if I was considering bidding on one of your auctions, the first impression I would have of your 62 negatives is that they would scare the hell out of me, no matter how many positives you had.
Big numbers mean little to most people, beyond the fact that they're big numbers. You know the difference between 10,000 and 20,000 positives because you worked so hard for them, but few others do. I wish the truth were different and that buyers could instantly do complex division in their heads so that they would know immediately that 99.692% of your customers are happy, but they can't, and that's not what their eyes tell them.
Perception is everything, and being right may make you feel better, but it doesn't pay the bills.
posted on May 2, 2002 11:03:17 PM
Your points are all very valid. My husband has presented the same arguments time and time again. Why bother leaving negative feedback it only ultimately ends up impacting us. I guess the reality is that this is my one avenue to lash back at someone who has cost me money but most importantly a great deal of time. It is theraputic to vent, even if it might not be smart!
posted on May 2, 2002 11:30:41 PM
I get your point bdunique. It is very hard not to get emotional when you feel that you and your caracter and being flung around lied about only from bidders with chips on their shoulders.
Even negative feedback should be truthful. If I respond on a deadbeat negative I write Non Paying Bidder.(Did not contact me & retaliated and used blackmail and lied), of course it depends on how the bidder acts in the transaction process. Some are rude and nasty from the beginning, and it gets worse if I use the NPB alert.
This is a no win situation we are in trying to make a few bucks on ebay. We are at their mercy. They are so set in their ways that what worked in the beginning is not working now.
Maybe I will suggest they put an X on the NPB ID so we sellers would know how many times this person did not pay. Then if they work real hard to get their feedback rating up they get a point. Silly HUH. About as silly as ebays rules about ignoring the deadbeats.
Negative feedback hurts when bidders believe the 6 negatives are etched in stone and they pay no attention to 316 positives.
So I will keep plodding along. maybe all I need is a Valium to keep me from taking all this so seriously.
posted on May 3, 2002 12:02:09 AMI told him this in a letter sent to him with a CC to safeharbor. About a week and a half later, he contritely emailed me (after check cleared) and asked me if I would remove the non-paying bidder status. I did and he was back to bidding on eBay. I hope he learned a lesson.
I get payments from bidders who have been booted by eBay. I send them the product. End of story. The last one came from an auction that closed over six months ago. No, I don't ask eBay to reinstate them. They've already burned four sellers. Enough is enough.
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