posted on December 27, 2005 04:27:31 PM
I'VE HAD 2 PAYPAL'S REVERSED THIS WEEK....BOTH TO FOREIGN SHIPPED PLACES.....POST OFFICE TELLS ME THERES NO WAY TO TRACK FOREIGN SHIPMENTS WHICH LEADS ME TO BELIEVE IF YOU WERE UNSCRUPULOUS AND LIVED IN ANOTHER COUNTRY ---YOU COULD MAKE A PRETTY FAIR LIVING ORDERING STUFF AND JUST ASKING FOR A PAYPAL REVERSAL. HOW DOES ANYONE ELSE HANDLE THIS WITH PAYPAL PAYMENTS ?
posted on December 27, 2005 04:35:26 PM
Starting with the new year tracking will be available on all international packages, see my posting on USPS news for international shipping.
The most secure way to ship international is Registered Mail or Express Mail. Express is ungodly expensive though. Registered is not bad but there are usually limits on indemnity coverage (insurance) but there is no doubt about it either being or not being delivered. Pretty much everything I ship just goes Airmail Parcel Post with Insurance (mandatory). That way if the buyer sais it never arrived I just file a insurance claim with the post office (again see my post on new USPS reg's about insurance as this is changing).
Over the last 2 month's I have had a couple of packages that took EXTREMELY long times to get delivered. I even waited the 30 days and filed a Form 542 inquiry about international mail and most of them have now showed up. It took them 1 to 1 1/2 month's to get there. Must have been the holiday back log. I don't know how long your packages have been missing but if it's under 1 1/2 months odd's are they may still be in transit. I would go to your local post office and fill out a form PS Form 542 "Inquiry about a Registered Article or an Insured Parcel or an Ordinary Article". This form get's the ball rolling for finding out what happened to your package and it can be used on for investigating all types of international mail even if not insured.
posted on December 27, 2005 04:57:23 PM
Wow, sorry to hear that. I think the consenus around here is that you don't use paypal for international shipments.
I for one wouldn't just for the reason you have listed.
I wonder if paypal will take the new international tracking?
Ron
"Better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not."
You can have protected transactions between US, Canadian, and UK parties. I usually don't bother accepting PayPal from anyone other than confirmed US because PP doesn't let you set a "payment preference" that allows only protected transactions. So, I allow only US confirmed payments. Period.
As regarding tracking and all that doo-dah: it won't affect my decision about international PayPal one iota.
posted on December 27, 2005 07:11:31 PM
Lost or Damaged Shipments: We ask that you please note that we are not responsible for lost or damaged shipments. All items purchased from us are made pursuant to a shipment contract. This means that the risk of loss and title for such items pass to you upon our delivery to the carrier. We package our items securely, in sturdy, protective containers, and ship with a delivery confirmation which indicates that the item has been placed into the mail stream. If you do not pay for the optional insurance, or registered mail, the responsibility for loss or damage is yours. Please remember that you are purchasing philatelic items or other collectibles which in many cases can not be easily replaced. The placement of an order with us, will indicate your acceptance of this policy.
A similar statement is used by Amazon.com. As to the DC, if one were to use Shipping Assistant, there is a provision for a postmark on the receipt. The postmark would indicate that the item was delivered to the carrier. Title and risk of loss passes to buyer when postmarked.
posted on December 27, 2005 07:36:11 PM
this thread is about accepting Paypal,your terms of payment means nothing when it comes to chargeback.
Paypal expects you to ship to confirmed address with online trackable DC .
In case of chargeback,Paypal may not protect you if the amount is too large for them to eat.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on December 27, 2005 07:38:15 PM
yes,some overseas buyers are doing well,I have one buyer from Spain who keeps his feedback private.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on December 27, 2005 07:43:20 PM
Wrong ... the statement creates a contract between buyer and seller. PayPal is only a medium of exchange between both. If item is not insured, or damaged, buyer has agreed to accept the loss or damage. PayPal has to abide by the agreement.
Sometimes things are not as they seem or appear. A contract is a contract. PayPal can not enforce any chargebacks, when buyer has agreed to terms otherwise. The same would hold true with a cc chargeback.
posted on December 28, 2005 01:01:45 AMmingotree, wrote,
International Money Orders ONLY from non-U.S.A. buyers...The End., no argument , that's it!!!!!
Our non-U.S. buyers for the most part pay direct into one of our bank accounts in their country, so no fees to them or us plus no chargeback risk to us either. Or they do a BIC + IBAN transfer in Euros at no charge to either party.
posted on December 28, 2005 07:15:35 AM
Do you really expect Paypal customer service in India to study every seller's terms of sales ??
Do you think selling on Ebay from your home is going to create a contract between you the seller and Joe the bidder from somewhere in cyberspace?
If you have license and storefront and legit retail business,first - you must understand Ebay is a person to person venue,not really meant for the storefront retailers ,what is a serious legit retailer doing rubbing elbow with the pajama clad home grown seller ,everyone knows the margin is pathetic only the amateur home based seller would eat!
The final decison of a customer chargeback lies with his cc issuer,not you.not Paypal ,not its merchant account provider,and in the case of an intl dispute,the cc issuer is overseas in his country.
The credit card industry has modified the appeal procedure,the decision is final,no more appeals and if you want to appeal,you have to go to arbitration and it will cost you a lot of money to do so.
Like Tom said,the best defense is either dont use Paypal / merchant account OR just willing to eat the loss if it happens.
I have a bidder from Spain who claims he did not receive the item,he has made his feedback private and there is no way to find out what his NEGs are all about.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on December 28, 2005 07:54:10 AM
I filed a Form 542 inquiry last year but never heard anything about it or the package. The package apparently never arrived.
posted on December 28, 2005 09:38:48 AM
hwahwa - Thank you for the business 101 in online selling. All of you have so much more selling experiences than I do, and I learn so much from your posts.
No, I do not expect PayPal customer service in India to study every seller's terms of sales. However, I do expect them to honor the contract that exits between the buyer and seller regarding the sale in dispute.
I do think that selling from my business, which is located in my home, will create a contract between me, the seller, and Joe the bidder or buyer, who may transact from somewhere in cyberspace, but actually resides in a brick and mortar domicile.
I do have a business license with a sale tax permit which could posibbly be considered as a legit retail business. Further, I do understand that many believe that ebay is a person to person venue. However, ebay is more than that. Ebay is also meant for a legit online retailer who does his business in his underwaer. As to your or anyone's profit margin, I can not answer.
As to the final decision of a customer chargeback, I do know that a contract is a contract, is a contract, is a contract. If I (a) inform the buyer of TOS, and have optional insurance available; (b) he buys and assumes the risk of loss; (c) I ship with proof of acceptance by the carrier; and (d) if there is a loss or damage, the buyer is out of luck.
Now, the International insurance that Mike4x4 mentions is a saving grace for everyone involved. A problem I do see with the USPS International insurance is that the adressee (buyer) receives the cash not the seller.
I would be interested to hear more about agitprop's operation. It sounds very interesting.
posted on December 28, 2005 09:48:19 AM
Oh, I also agree with Tom in that we should not use PayPal. What else is there? I have looked very hard for an alternative. However, there jsut ain't nothin out there to replace it.
posted on December 28, 2005 10:34:50 AM
Oh jwpc, I don't state it like that in my auctions ! But if they'd read between the lines , that's what I mean !
posted on December 28, 2005 12:44:56 PM
agitprop holds bank accounts in different countries in local currencies,say euro,yen,us dollar etc.
She often mentions a method which we refer to in this country as ACH,automated clearing house - this is what transpires when you do online banking instructing your bank to transfer fund from your account to pay your gas company,your phone co etc .
But in this country,ACH would only work among domestic banks and not with foreign banks in foreign countries.
So what works for her does not work for most US based ebay sellers.
I am not a lawyer but the retailer is responsible for delivering goods to the customer and if the customer tells his credit card issuer he did not receive the goods,he is going to win the chargeback,irregardless of whether he opts for insurance or no insurance.
Insurance really protects the seller,not the buyer,esp when credit card is used for payment.
another point to remember is that if the customer attempts to return the merchandise and the seller refuses to accept,he will win the chargeback and keep the merchandise as well( I see some Ebay sellers will say in their terms of sales,no return ).
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on December 28, 2005 01:04:01 PM
I think AMEX,unlike VISA/MC will verify cardholder information if you call their US office.
But then your bidder would have to have an AMEX card and you need a merchant account accepting AMEX card.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on December 28, 2005 01:13:41 PM
Now, the International insurance that Mike4x4 mentions is a saving grace for everyone involved. A problem I do see with the USPS International insurance is that the adressee (buyer) receives the cash not the seller.
///////////////////////////////////
Why should the buyer receiving the cash be a problem?
seller has already received the payment and shipped the goods,if good did not arrive,the buyer gets his money back from the post office.
I know with DHL,the seller gets the money and ship a replacement,which is not easy to do if the item sold on Ebay is one of a kind.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on December 28, 2005 01:18:05 PM
Thanks hwahwa for your as always insightful commentary. I'll add that the only market we have problems with are the US and Canada - customers in those markets can't easily make bank to bank transfers (unless they know about CheckFree + ACH, or similar), so we only accept money orders from North American customers. We negotiate them locally at no charge through our main bank. FYI, the Patriot Act closed the door to most foreigners holding US bank accounts - most moved their funds offshore to more money friendly (and tax-free) locales or switched into stronger currencies like Euros.
As an aside, I was informed that the reason BidPay closed was due to even more onerous US money laundering regulations that take effect from January 2006 particularly the "know your customer" provisions.
posted on December 28, 2005 02:58:33 PM
Ok - this is my last post on the topic. Remember, that the original post asked what we do regarding PayPal chargebacks. I gave my answer. And, as usual, it was yawned at, dismissed, and told that it was off topic.
Now, I just finished speaking with CapitalOne. I was told that the statement I use in my TOS would have a bearing on any chargeback, and if I could demonstrate shipment (receipt) the buyer would not be able to claim a chargeback.
I realize that I might not prevail 100% of the time. However, the TOS will give me another weapon to keep my cash when the buyer tries to claim a chargeback.
posted on December 28, 2005 04:06:54 PM
hwahwa - True about the adressee (buyer) getting the insurance payment. But would this not show proof that the buyer received compensation for the product they did not receive thereby giving us the seller a legit reason to contend the CC charge back? Otherwise the buyer would be getting his money back twice and I think if you contacted either the CC company in question or the USPS they would see what was happening and you would get credit from the CC company and the buyer would get his money back via insurance. Unfornatually I can think of no way to truely find out until someone has to go through the process and finds out the end result (just hoping it's not me).
posted on December 28, 2005 04:19:52 PM
would it be fraud if a buyer files chargeback claiming not getting the item and win,and at the same time co-operate with the seller to get a refund from the post office?
I would think to file USPS claim,both parties have to sign,usually seller will prepare the paperwork and signed and forwarded to the buyer in his country.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
posted on December 28, 2005 04:26:33 PM
Koz,
kudos to you for getting in touch with Capital One.
Another solution to this problem is to make insurance mandatory .
But USPS has been known to refuse to pay claim if they think the item is not worth the insured amount,if the dc shows delivery ,if the item is properly packed so the damage cannot be made during transit or outside box is not damaged etc etc
/ lets all stop whining !! /
