ladyjewels2000
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posted on March 27, 2006 03:34:25 PM
This is what I was told today. I had a charge back or "dispute" filed against my paypal. The buyer was lying on several major points and I replied saying I had email documentation to prove he was lying and I would gladly provide this information along with digital photos also showing he is lying.
Paypal ruled in his favor and I am TOTALLY shock that they didn't even ask me to forward my information (in other words - my side of the dispute) The space allowed for my reply was not enough to forward these emails nor did it allow attachments. I felt that would follow.
I call as soon as I got the notice and talked to someone in that department, but not connected with my case. She stated that email are not acceptable as proof of anything to paypal. Doesn't the court system accept emails as documentation in trails etc???
She also stated that they don't open attachments at all - this I can understand cause I'd really like to send them attachment they wouldn't soon forget and I'm sure I'm not alone!!! But I could have printed it & mailed it to them. I feel railroaded to put it politely.
I would appeal but I feel that would be a big fat waste of my time and energy. I can't believe this lying jerk got away with this.
I guess my 1250 perfect transaction with paypal didn't compare to his 125??
[ edited by ladyjewels2000 on Mar 27, 2006 04:27 PM ]
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marcn
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posted on March 27, 2006 03:49:01 PM
What was the basis of the dispute? Was it non-delivery or not as described?
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ladyjewels2000
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posted on March 27, 2006 04:11:05 PM
Not as described.
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tonimar1
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posted on March 27, 2006 05:51:14 PM
I'm sorry to hear of your problem.
Did the buyer send you back the item?
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mamachia
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posted on March 27, 2006 05:55:42 PM
Isn't there a way to call Paypal to dispute it? Was it not as described what he won? If he is lying about the item, I would fight it big time if involves big bucks. How much was it if I may ask?
mama
[ edited by mamachia on Mar 27, 2006 05:56 PM ]
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fenix03
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posted on March 27, 2006 06:10:20 PM
APPEAL IT. You can and you should. If nothing else you can demand that the item be returned. You need to apeal it via email - you do know that you don't have to limit yourself to that little box right... you can actually send an email to disputes when it is filed. You need to include all headers and such and include links to the photos. Once the system states that the email has been recieved and the case is under review, you get someone on the phone and walk them thru it.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Never ask what sort if computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
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agitprop
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posted on March 27, 2006 06:39:39 PM
ladyjewels2000 wrote Doesn't the court system accept emails as documentation in trails etc???
Yes, US and foreign courts have long held the admissibility of electronic evidence provided it can be verified by an independent expert witness. PayPal doesn't accept emails as proof of anything since they seldom bother to read them.
When was the last time you got a reply from PayPal that answered your question? (Most are simply answered by expert systems that cobble together a few phrases to appease customers.)
I would appeal but I feel that would be a big fat waste of my time and energy. I can't believe this lying jerk got away with this. I guess my 1250 perfect transaction with paypal didn't compare to his 125??
Actually even if the buyer had zero feedback PayPal would still side with them against you the seller. If you sent the "lying jerk" your item through the US Postal Service then lodge a complaint of Mail Fraud with the US Postal Inspectors. Also file a complaint with your local Police and Police in buyer's jurisdiction. PayPal will do nothing except happily take fees for "protecting you against fraud".
Home of the best eBay auction fee & PayPal calculators: http://auctionfeecalculator.com/us_ebay_fee_calc.html
[ edited by agitprop on Mar 27, 2006 06:40 PM ]
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sparkz
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posted on March 27, 2006 07:17:57 PM
It looks like Paypal is turning the "item not as described" provision into a cleaverly disguised "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" policy.
If Murphy's law is correct, everything East of the San Andreas Fault will slide into the Atlantic
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fenix03
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posted on March 27, 2006 07:18:07 PM
Agit - do you honestly believe that the police are going to get involved in a single PayPal conflict? It's not going to happen. trying to make that happen will be a MUCH bigger waste of time than any other process she may go with. It's a civil dispute.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Never ask what sort if computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
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agitprop
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posted on March 27, 2006 08:50:23 PM
Hi fenix,
Last time I checked "obtaining goods/theft by deception" was still a criminal rather than civil matter. Might be a misdemeanor to a felony depending on your location. IANAL YMMV
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stonecold613
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posted on March 27, 2006 08:52:14 PM
Agit - do you honestly believe that the police are going to get involved in a single PayPal conflict?
Actually they do. As long as you also get the postal inspectors involved as well. Send your loser a copy and paste of the USPS fraud pages.
https://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/ContactUs.htm
It has been very effective for me in the past. So far 100% have re-sent the money.
At the very least, it should put a heck of a scare in them.
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Many misleading tricks in 2006. The new Demomoron slogan.
[ edited by stonecold613 on Mar 27, 2006 08:55 PM ]
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on March 27, 2006 11:16:41 PM
Yeah I am sure the police will just drop everything and get right on that.
Ron
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ladyjewels2000
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posted on March 28, 2006 04:25:50 AM
Sorry folks - I had a buyer's remorse headache and called it a night early.
He has sent it back and I accepted it because he said it wasn't working (I felt a charge back regardless) but it's working perfect (sorry I didn't make that clear). The "not as described" according to him was that it didn't work. I was going to refund less my listing fees (too late for a FVF I think) and shipping which wasn't cheap so I'm out about $40 to $50, plus if I relist it now - the sell price will probably go down considerably as auctions are slower now (tax time etc. As soon as I relist it - I bet he will post a negative too. That'll help!!
I shipped with DHL with insurance for the full $250. However he was unwilling to help me file a claim. He keep saying there was no evidence of shipping damage but if it was internal damage how could he say that? I see now why he didn't want to do this - DHL would have seen that it WAS working. That would have blown his plan right out the water!!!
I can look back now and see my mistakes - I should have held my ground and filed the insurance claim while he had the item. I had gotten permission to file the claim after I got the item back - so that was what I planned to do. I just never expected that the item was still working.
But all that is beside the point as this is a matter of principle. Paypal didn't even consider my side. I called as soon as I got the notice and that's when I was told the unimportance of my information.
This is my first experience with any type of "dispute" but what happens if the winner keeps the item and files? Will paypal really refund their money and let them keep the item? You got to be kidding - right!!
Guess I'm lucky that I do have the unit back and it's working wonderfully.
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tOMWiii
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posted on March 28, 2006 05:18:19 AM
LadyD:
Now & then, Ralphie & I sell USED electronics & PC equipment (separate from our NIB SCALES & BALANCES)...
Whenever we do, we ALWAYS put a BIG disclaimer similar to:
"We are not electronics experts. This item may or may not meet your expectations and requirements, as it is USED ELECTRONICS. Thus it is sold "AS IS" ~ NO RETURNS / NO REFUNDS"
F. LEE RALPHIE (the AMBULANCE CHASER) states that there is something squirelly with COMMERCIAL LAW called IMPLIED WARRANTY which kicks in if you do NOT explicitly deny it???
So, we sell "AS IS" NO RETURNS / NO REFUNDS!
No problemos yet...
[ edited by tOMWiii on Mar 28, 2006 05:18 AM ]
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ladyjewels2000
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posted on March 28, 2006 05:35:05 AM
Tom - Do you state that it works if it does or just don't mention that part at all?
If you say it works, seems like they could still do the old "not as described" thing. It seems to me that there is no way around this - if they want to do a charge back - looks like they can.
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tOMWiii
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posted on March 28, 2006 05:44:49 AM
Aye, matey! There's da RUB!
Define: "It works?"
I sold a very nice 1980 ZENITH SW TRANS OCEANIC RADIO that had oodles of buttons & functions...
If I had said "It works," that implies that I tested EVERY SINGLE function of the radio & found it to meet original FACTORY specifications!
Ralphie immediately screamed: Ai! Carrumba! and dictated the following description:
"Upon turning ON the POWER SWITCH, various lights lit and there was various sounds noted from the speaker. We successfully tuned one station and listened for 30 seconds. This is the TOTAL extent of testing we performed..."THEN OUR USUAL "AS IS" disclaimer went HERE.
Sold for $100, and you donna want to know what we PAID for it...
[ edited by tOMWiii on Mar 28, 2006 05:45 AM ]
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on March 28, 2006 06:16:47 AM
Ahh an electronic item, you should take ralphie's advice because as someone who buys electronics on eBay occasionally I have more respect for ralphie's type description because at least I know it comes on and it MAY work.
Ron
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pelorus
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posted on March 28, 2006 10:35:18 AM
TOM -- If you include your BIG disclaimer does that prevent buyer from getting his money back from PP? It should, but I would like to know for sure, like based on someone's experience.
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hwahwa
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posted on March 28, 2006 12:59:50 PM
If a customer pays with his credit card,he is entitled to a refund if he returns the item.
If the seller refuses the return,then the customer will keep the item free.
/ lets all stop whining !! /
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stonecold613
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posted on March 28, 2006 01:12:33 PM
hwahwa,
I must give you credit. This is the first post in a very long time you got correct.
All the CC companies require is that you attempt to return it. If they refuse, it is yours to keep. But they require the purchaser to send it back on their dime, not the sellers.
.
.
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Many misleading tricks in 2006. The new Demomoron slogan.
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tOMWiii
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posted on March 28, 2006 02:03:12 PM
"TOM -- If you include your BIG disclaimer does that prevent buyer from getting his money back from PP? It should, but I would like to know for sure, like based on someone's experience."
Sadly...NO!
Because, due to the FEDERAL LAW that covers CONSUMERS' RIGHTS regarding CREDIT CARD PURCHASES, merchants have virtually NO RIGHTS...
HOWEVER, I feel that CLEARLY DEFINED RETURN/REFUND POLICIES deter stupid returns...
I've been selling since 1999 -- over 3000 transactions...ALL that time, I've had only about 5 or 6 folks ask me about RETURNS/REFUNDS...and only ONE ever did so...
EVEN WITH MY DISCLAIMER: when somebody asks, I tell them: "Return it & I will REFUND your PURCHASE PRICE + S&H BOTH WAYS"
VIRTUALLY NOBODY follows thru and RETURNS anything!
(I'm not talking about DOA NIB ITEMS -- those occur in <1% of shipments (over-enthusiastic UPS delivery person) & I handle those with a NO-CHARGE CALL-TAG EXCHANGE)
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ladyjewels2000
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posted on March 28, 2006 02:40:21 PM
Tom I have that all the time too. Someone will write that so and so is wrong. I'll write back saying to return it for a refund w/shipping and the next thing I know they are saying "well it's not so bad after all - I want to keep it" and things like that. Sometimes I think people just want attention or something. I have had 5 returns or less since 1998.
But I have to say this guy was a total jerk. He wrote me one hour after he signed for the package saying it didn't work - something like "this is not as described". He had this planned all along and started out all but saying I was lying. I've great high FB and sell high price items all the time. Why would I lie about this one item?? I wish it wasn't working - then I wouldn't feel so violated.
I guess I have to let it go, consider myself lucky it doesn't happen all the time and hope he'll get his in the end. Oh Yeah and add a big fat disclaimer
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