posted on January 28, 2009 04:47:13 PM
I found this in a box lot last week - I had thought it may be soapstone - but it's too hard for that - found some info saying it's a chimera - part dragon, phoenix and lion. It's 5 x 3 inches and was wondering if anyone thought it might be jade or if they knew the stone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Caroline
[ edited by carolinetyler on Jan 28, 2009 04:49 PM ]
posted on January 28, 2009 05:41:22 PM
If it is heavy and does not scratch with a true stainless steel knife (swiss knife,no carbon content),it is probably jade-low grade nephrite jade, machine carved.
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
To be a true Chimera as first described by Homer, the sculpture should have the body of a lion with a tail that terminates in a snake's head. The head of a goat is located on the back of the animal arising in the center of the spine....and, as Homer described, "a thing of immortal make, not human, lion-fronted and snake behind, a goat in the middle, and snorting out the breath of the terrible flame of bright fire.
I can understand some transformation throughout history but this little animal doesn't capture the chimera's ominous essence even if you base your description on a Dungeons and Dragons depiction.
posted on January 29, 2009 10:45:25 AM
This is obviously not a Greek Chimera. I believe the term is also used to describe mythical creatures with parts from different animals.
Chimeras guarded tombs in Asia and they were part lion, ram, dragon, phoenix etc.
Here is the more liberal (than Homer's) definition of the term from Wkitionary:
Noun
Singular
chimera
Plural
chimeras
chimera (plural chimeras)
1. (mythology) Chimera, or any fabulous creature with parts from different animals.
2. A vain, foolish, or incongruous fancy, or creature of the imagination; as, the chimera of an author.
3. (genetics) An organism with genetically distinct cells originating from two zygotes.
4. (architecture) A gargoyle that does not work as a waterspout.
5. (usually chimaera) A cartilaginous marine fish in the subclass Holocephali and especially the order Chimaeriformes, with a blunt snout, long tail, and a spine before the first dorsal fin.
posted on January 29, 2009 10:53:56 AM
This is probably a version of the middle eastern biblical lion imported into China by foreign dignataries as gifts to the Chinese emperor.
These lions still exist in India.
The Chinese exagerated its features with curly hair,mane and expressions.
Why do they add the wings I dont know but we all know Pigs fly so why not lions?
There are plenty of Ebay bidders who fall for these dragons,chimera,foo dogs,the uglier the better!
You will get bids,good luck!
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
posted on January 29, 2009 01:37:17 PM
Neglas, I simply wrote about the Greek origin of the Chimera and then pointed out that over the course of history the defining characteristics named by Homer had probably been transformed as your Wiktionary source confirms.
Frankly, I see no value in the piece but it doesn't surprise me that there may be someone looking for such ugly sculpture unrepresentative of the name Chimera, other than the fact that it is only slightly grotesque.
posted on January 29, 2009 09:26:46 PM
I was hoping Agate would chime in with his expertise. Saw your listing on eBay and, given the provenance, doubt that this was cranked out for tourists. My Grandmother collected Asian antiques in the earlier-to mid twentieth century. This looks like something she would have. I don't think it's ugly at all.
posted on January 29, 2009 09:34:12 PM
I guess you need to be interested in ancient Far and Middle Eastern mythology to appreaciate this one. I personally love it. It is more crude than grotesque but that is what I find attractive about it.
I also find it a little ironic that some people think it is of little value. This is a figure that represents the protection of wealth if you follow Feng Shui.
posted on January 29, 2009 10:00:41 PM
Jadeite is one of the two minerals called jade. The other jade mineral is nephrite, which is a variety of actinolite. Jade has been used for eons in China and Central America as an ornamental and religious stone of deep significance. The nephrite jade was used mostly in China, although both have been used in both regions. Nephrite is more abundant than jadeite and has few color varieties, ranging only from creamy white to green.
Jadeite is found in strongly metamorphosed sodium-rich serpentinous rocks, and is named from the Spanish "piedra de ijada" (stone of the side) as it was thought to cure kidney stones and other kidney ailments.
Jadeite has many color varieties, and while green jadeite is most recognizable as jade, it is more commonly found as a grayish green, and may also be white, a pale blue-gray, or even a pale purple.
PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS:
* Color is usually green to grayish-green, white, pale shades of blue or purple, may also be yellow or pink.
* Luster is vitreous.
* Transparency: examples are translucent.
* Crystal System is monoclinic; 2/m
* Crystal Habits Generally fine-grained fibrous, also massive or granular.
* Cleavage: is good but rarely observed.
* Fracture is splintery to uneven.
* Hardness is 6.5.
* Specific Gravity is approximately 3.25 - 3.35 (above average for translucent minerals).
* Streak is white.
---------------------------------
Jade is a name that was applied to ornamental stones that were being brought to Europe from China and Central America. It wasn't until 1863 that it was realized that Jade was being applied to two different minerals. The two minerals are both exquisite for the purposes that jade is put to task and are hard to distinguish from each other. So what to do? Leave it alone and call them both Jade!
So technically speaking there is no such thing as jade. But 2 stones Jadeite & Nephrite that share a common name. The difference in price is staggering. The bright green translucent Jadeite is the most expensive of all. A small stone , say about a 10 x 8 mm. can be worth 1 years wages.
it is difficult to be sure what this piece is. But i believe it is a very low grade jadeite. Not worth a lot.
[ edited by agate18 on Jan 29, 2009 10:02 PM ]
[ edited by agate18 on Jan 30, 2009 05:39 AM ]
posted on January 29, 2009 10:19:45 PM
Thanks, Agate! I'm a low-grade rock hound, compulsively picking up every stone that strikes my fancy, I've tried to identify most of them, jade is tricky for me.
posted on January 30, 2009 05:30:48 AM "it is difficult to be sure what this piece is. But i believe it is a very low grade jadeite. Not worth a lot."
I agree with that! And even though it may appear to be an Asian antique to some, it's crutial to consider the possibility that it may be a reproduction.
It's a good policy to have an object such as this one appraised by an expert ...especially an object found in a box lot at an estate sale before suggesting that it may be jade or assuming that it's an antique.
posted on January 30, 2009 07:08:01 AM
I have to agree with you there Helen. The Chinese have become so good at faking their own antiques that I would not trust anything that I could not personally inspect. And then I would still have doubts about its authenticity especially with stone items.
posted on January 30, 2009 07:27:16 AM
So true, LtRay!
To sell it as a silly looking animal for 9.99 is one thing but to misrepresent it as an antique, worth three to four hundred dollars is just not a good policy.
posted on January 30, 2009 10:07:04 AM
I used to import these nephrite jade carvings from Hong Kong.
The Hong Kong importers bought them in CHina from Chinese factories,they are carved with machine tools and most are replicas of ancient pieces from various dynasties.
Nephrite jade is cheap and abundant,and labor is cheap with power tools,they dont take long to complete a large carving,average 8-12 inches long.
Nephrite jade came in myriad of colors,the most prized ones are spinach green and mutton fat ,the rest is not worth much.
The stone may not be worth much,but the carving could command a good price,read the book 'Stones of Heaven' to view some of these prized carvings in the hands of European royal collections!
Of course back in the old days they were not carved with power tools !
The Chinese flooded the market with these carvings,I have even seen a 3 feet tall Buddha carving of solid dark green nephrite jade the merchant was trying to get rid of for Hk$100,000 dollars!
Make sure you take multiple pictures of this piece and use plenty of keywords such as dragon,kirin,devil,mythical beast,lion,foo dog,chimera etc,the word archaic helps too.
I never have any problem selling these beasts,dealers and dragon collectors love such pieces!
BTW,the Chinese did not have way to test if a stone is jade (nephrite) or serpertine or jet or soapstone or even marble!
When they pick up a stone and carve it into statutes,they will call it a jade statute.
Many so called jade figurines are really carved from serpertine so called Indian jade and now there are various stones called Soochow jade or new jade which are of dubious mineral.
Jadeite jade came later in Qing Dynasty when someone came back from Burma and the Chinese likes the Kingfisher color and they call it jade and use it mostly in jewelry.
But this piece is nephrite jade similar to the ones I imported from Hong Kong.
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
posted on January 30, 2009 10:21:43 AM
agate said-
it is difficult to be sure what this piece is. But i believe it is a very low grade jadeite. Not worth a lot
///////////////////
No,it is low grade nephrite ,not jadeite.
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
posted on January 31, 2009 07:37:29 PM
"To sell it as a silly looking animal for 9.99 is one thing but to misrepresent it as an antique, worth three to four hundred dollars is just not a good policy".
Caroline is a respected antiques dealer. She came here for help in identifying the stone, not for misguided Greek definitions or uneducated comments on the aesthetics of the piece. To challenge her as misrepresenting the piece requires some knowledge or proof on your part.
posted on January 31, 2009 08:19:24 PM
Caroline never said she is going to sell it as antique for a few hundred dollars.
She just wants to know if this is jade!
And the answer is -
Yes,it is jade.It is nephrite jade.
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
posted on January 31, 2009 08:33:42 PM
Just want to say this,how much is a piece of carving worth?
It is how much people are willing to pay for it?
My Hk dealer told me an American from Georgia owns a store in GA selling antique swords,bayonets and pistols etc.
He displayed some of these nephrite jade and stone carvings in his store and they fetch a few hundred to a few thousand dollars.
That was 8 years ago and his clients have never seen such intriguing carvings and they like them,they dont really care if they are antiques or not.
He has the right store to display such carvings,he has the right customer base who are well heeled to collect these carvings and the time was right- he was the only one in his area to showcase these figurines.
Needless to say,he made a lot of money!
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
posted on February 1, 2009 01:40:26 AM
Serpentine dyed brown. See how the pigment collects in the cracks. Softer than jade. The Chinese sometimes refer to this material as New Jade. Wholesale value $7.00 to $12.00. I also have experience importing these from China.
posted on February 1, 2009 05:25:24 AM
Thanks, Dave for your experienced validation.
Pixiamom stated, "Caroline is a respected antiques dealer. She came here for help in identifying the stone, not for misguided Greek definitions or uneducated comments on the aesthetics of the piece. To challenge her as misrepresenting the piece requires some knowledge or proof on your part."
Pixiamom, nobody here challenged "Caroline" with misrepresenting the piece. Because Caroline is a respected dealer, she came here with her question in order to make sure that she would describe her object correctly. She received good advice from people with experience and because she is a respected dealer, she proceeded appropriately.
As an educated contributor to this board for ten years, I have seen such objects advertised incorrectly for three or four hundred dollars. I'm sure that you would agree that misrepresentation of what may be just a repro is not good policy. And as I mentioned earlier, when a seller is not sure it's good policy to have the piece appraised.
posted on February 1, 2009 05:28:28 AM
And finally, my comment about the background of Chimeras was just offered as a point of interest. That's allowed even if it doesn't meet with your appreciation.
posted on February 1, 2009 06:02:44 AM
Helen - you are not adding to this thread because you want to express your opinion or add useful information - you have an issue with me in that we have sparred in the past on the round table - I am a conservative and you are not. So, take your attitude back to the round table from whence it came and leave the discussion to the grown ups.
I appreciate everyone's input, it's very educating. The items in the box in which it were found ranged in age from about 1910 - 1950 and were mid range to high quality. But it feels like it has some age to it - but I don't think it's like 18th Century or anything - but it doesn't feel brand new.
I've been playing around with the price to see if there is any interest - that's always one way to find out if it's real or not!
I want to be specific enough to educate a buyer, but not so specific that I am incorrect. I think Jade has become a fairly generic term that covers nephrite, serpentine, jadeite and every green colored stone under the sun. Not saying that that is a good thing but that seems to be the trend.
Thank you all for your opinions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Caroline
posted on February 1, 2009 07:45:49 AM
Caroline stated, "Helen - you are not adding to this thread because you want to express your opinion or add useful information - you have an issue with me in that we have sparred in the past on the round table - I am a conservative and you are not. So, take your attitude back to the round table from whence it came and leave the discussion to the grown ups.
Caroline, I express my opinion about topics that interest me here irrespective of the political inclination of you or anyone else.
Your presumptuous exaggeration that I "sparred" with you on another board as an explanation of my motive to post here on the value of an Ebay object is absurd.
posted on February 1, 2009 08:18:19 AM
When I made my round in HK markets,two popular comments the dealers like to make is (1) This is Jade! (2) They dont make them anymore!
And you strolled to the next stall and you see more of those not made anymore stuff!
When it is getting close to Chinese New Year,the street hawkers will chase after you and say-I am going home for the holiday so I am going to give you a good price on this item!
Caroline,
why dont you scratch the piece with stainless steel knife and see if it is jade or serpertine?
Serpertine is softer than jade,jade is also very hard to dye as it is almost non porous,people use to go around with a bottle of nail polish remover and try to remove the color from any ' jade' jewelry.
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
posted on February 1, 2009 08:35:49 AM
Years ago Ebay sellers did very well selling these so called antique jade carvings,some even come with certificate of authenticity.
Some claimed to be private collector whose children college education exceeds his budget,therefore he is liquidating his lifelong collection and they came to the buyer with an inventory tag!
Later they tried to liquidate their pieces with a starting bid of 99 cents and a shipping of 65 dollars (USA sellers).
There is one antique dealer with a store based in Seattle who not only provided certificate but also carry a return policy if the buyer can prove from either written claim of an expert in the field or TI testing results.
Now who is going to take an Ebay item and send it to Oxford University to be tested?
This dealer was later exposed not by Ebay or Ebay bidders but a Seattle newspaper and no longer sell on Ebay.
By now,most Ebay bidders know these are not antiques,they are not manually carved and they may not be jade .Some of these bidders are resellers who will try to sell them as antique and jade pieces in their shops!
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
posted on February 1, 2009 11:13:57 AM
Re:"I think Jade has become a fairly generic term that covers nephrite, serpentine, jadeite and every green colored stone under the sun."
Maybe on eBay or at flea markets, but not in the gem and mineral world. Serpentine, green agate, or any other "green colored stone" mis-identified as jade at a mineral show (or in the mineral category) would seriously jeopardize the credibility of the seller.
Regarding "new jade"; there are a couple of countries that export items under misnomers to give them a more "gemmy name" for mass appeal. For example, dyed howlite renamed something along the lines of reworked turquoise. Or a more extreme example is the so-called cherry quartz sold by many sellers from China that is nothing more than a synthetic material or a lab-formed quartz with red splotches.
Sorry that this does help with your ID of the material of the piece in question.
[ edited by wgonzales on Feb 1, 2009 11:14 AM ]
posted on February 1, 2009 01:43:59 PM
You want jade,come and get it!
http://www.masonkay.com/
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
Caroline 
