Fenix03
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posted on September 15, 2003 10:30:13 AM new
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A federal appeals court postponed California's Oct. 7 gubernatorial recall election, ruling the historic vote cannot proceed as scheduled because some votes would be cast using outmoded punch-card ballot machines.
In what was the last of about a dozen legal challenges to the attempt to unseat Gov. Gray Davis, a three-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said Monday it is unacceptable that six counties would be using outdated punch-card ballots, the type that sparked the "hanging chads" litigation in Florida during the 2000 presidential election.
The appellate panel agreed with the American Civil Liberties Union that the voting machines were prone to error and that Davis' fate could be decided later. By that time, the counties have promised to replace their punch-card machines under a court order in separate litigation.
The counties include the state's most populous region, Los Angeles, in addition to Mendocino, Sacramento, San Diego, Santa Clara and Solano. They represented 44 percent of the state's registered voters during the 2000 election.
State officials, who conceded in court documents that the punch-card voting mechanisms are "more prone to voter error than are newer voting systems," were likely to appeal the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
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gravid
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posted on September 15, 2003 11:58:21 AM new
AH - The court can just annoint - er, excuse me, appoint someone. They have experience at that.
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Linda_K
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posted on September 15, 2003 04:35:49 PM new
Figures that the 9th circuit court of appeals would do something like this. They have a reputation all their own....the court with the most overturned decisions in the USA.
What was it??? something like 94-96% of their decisions have been overturned by the USSC when they get that far.
On their past record alone they all should be forced to resign. What a waste of taxpayer dollars their decisions have been.
And let's see....since they've [9th circuit] found those punch card ballot machines just won't do NOW for this recall election....then I ask why were they okay to use and re-elect Davis this past year? Why was the ACLU not complaining then that they shouldn't be used?
What a joke.
edited to say ACLU not AFL-CIO
[ edited by Linda_K on Sep 15, 2003 04:37 PM ]
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Fenix03
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posted on September 15, 2003 04:59:03 PM new
Linda, there was a question about them following the 2000 Florida debacle but the motion to replace them either had not yet been passed or gave a pass to the 2002 election since it would have been unreasonable to expect complete replacement in such a short time. They are all set to be replaced and there is a bill requiring that it be done in time for what was assumed at the time to have been the next election, in 2004. I believe they are all supposed to be done by March. The voting ballot issue has been looming in the background of the recall since the very beginning but national press was ignoring it at the time.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
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Linda_K
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posted on September 15, 2003 05:24:58 PM new
Yes, all voting machines were to be replaced by the 2004 elections. But I believe the CA Supreme Court already ruled these current machines were okay to be used in this recall election. The 9th circuit has now overruled that. Did you read the reasons they gave for this decision?
I can't stay right now...TTYL
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ebayauctionguy
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posted on September 15, 2003 05:37:47 PM new
If people are too stupid to use the punch card ballots, then they shouldn't be voting.
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davebraun
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posted on September 15, 2003 05:40:34 PM new
The six most populous districts within California (43% of all registered voters) still have the old machines (punch card). It has been indisputably demonstrated that the punch card machines are 2X more prone to error than the more modern optical scanners and/or touchscreens. As the margin is expected to be narrow there is a high probability that the outcome could fall within the error rate of the older machines. The new machines will be in place in time for the next regularly scheduled election (March 2004) 5 months from now. As this is a State election and not Federal it is difficult to know if the SC will take the case and if so how it would rule.
Republican, the other white meat!
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Fenix03
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posted on September 15, 2003 06:26:38 PM new
EAG - I was not aware that people had to meet a desired standard of intelligence and dexterity to vote. In view of your opinion however perhaps we should just cancel future elections in Florida.
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Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
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ebayauctionguy
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posted on September 15, 2003 06:55:42 PM new
By the way, this is the court that ruled that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional.
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davebraun
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posted on September 15, 2003 07:01:08 PM new
Not to go off topic but they were correct in the pledge ruling. As a godless atheist I resent being forced to recite allegiance to a fictitious being. Loyalty or allegiance does not have anything to do with belief in the bogeyman and no one should be forced to acknowledge any deity no matter how vaguely phrased.
Republican, the other white meat!
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Linda_K
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posted on September 15, 2003 08:11:00 PM new
dave - Maybe you missed the CA in my post about the California Supreme Court.
"But I believe the CA Supreme Court already ruled these current machines were okay to be used in this recall election."
First, a day after pro-abortion actor Arnold Schwarzenegger declared he was running as a Republican for Governor, the California Supreme Court turned aside several challenges to the recall vote.
The judges dismissed the various lawsuits, ranging from contesting candidates who have applied for the ballot to the procedures to worries that punchcard ballots like those in Florida would be used in some counties[/b].
AND on As a godless atheist I resent being forced to recite allegiance to a fictitious being. No one forces you to recite the pledge now....but some of you lefties want to take away the right of others to honor their country and their flag by doing so. You don't want to....fine....I want to...I should be allowed to do so.
You far left-wingers are so quick to want to take away the rights of others under some false claim that you don't want to 'have' to when you are required to. It's really a control issue, imo. You want things only done [or not] the way you want. Very little flexibility.
[ edited by Linda_K on Sep 15, 2003 08:12 PM ]
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davebraun
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posted on September 15, 2003 08:18:52 PM new
The bottom line is the judge did it and the right wing reactionaries are upset...big deal
You can pledge all you want to whomever you wish just don't require me do so. Nor will I or should I be forced to leave the room or in any other way acquiesce to your deities.
It's pointless to discuss this with you as I have no quotes from drudge, sludge or fox to bolster my position nor is it mentioned in any ancient texts.
Republican, the other white meat!
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Linda_K
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posted on September 15, 2003 08:32:05 PM new
boy...dave...what a thick head you appear to have. Fox News etc....lol
YOU live in CA....try reading any newpaper...even your left slanted ones report on how the CA SUPREME court ruled. Doesn't matter who reports it ....facts are still the same.
And I'd ask you to support your position on BEING FORCED to say the pledge. Where in recent years has anyone been forced to say the pledge in CA? Heaven forbid you could allow anyone else to infrenge on your sensitive ears....but you sure ask others to be accepting to all you judge/find appropriate. It works both ways.
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mlecher
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posted on September 16, 2003 06:39:15 AM new
If the Circuit Court decision IS over ruled by the Supreme Court, then GWB is an illegitimate President.
The decision is based upon the ruling of the Supreme Court when they apppointed GWB president. That is why it was a successful lawsuit.
LET THE NEO-CON TAP DANCE BEGIN!!!!!!!
Over rule it, GWB has to go.
Don't over rule it, Neo-Cons lose California.
And the most likely
Lie, Cheat and Steal and do the bidding of their Neo-Con masters and hope the country isn't lost.
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CBlev65252
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posted on September 16, 2003 06:50:12 AM new
On the "hanging chad" issue, Great Britain has an answer to that one. It's called a pencil and a piece of paper. Yes, they still use pencils and paper in the UK. According to my pal in London, they are very watchful that you return the pencil as you leave. 
I can only tell you what I hear living on the other side of the US. What many here see is a joke. Comments like, "Only in California", "What a crock", and "Don't they have more pressing problems?" crop up all the time around here. And the famous, "If Arnold is elected will the new state motto be "F*** You Ass***"?
Yes, chances are the court's decision will be overturned. However, why is there such anger over all of this? Is this not why we have a court system? Did you all expect someone not to use it? Why must this be made into a right/left issue?
I probably don't understand the urgency of all of this since it doesn't directly affect me. If I'm making wrong assumptions, I'm sorry.
Glad to be living in Ohio where things are far less crazy - that is until winter hits!
Cheryl
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gravid
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posted on September 16, 2003 07:16:20 AM new
Linda K -
I suggest if saying the pledge of alligience is so important to you you should do so every morning when you arise. I can't imagine that anyone will stop you.
When school children are told to say the pledge however the atmosphere is quite different.They know if they don't there will be distain and pay back either in their grades or getting thumped by the other kids. They used to toss the kids out of school who refused. How you must miss those days.
Of course you conveniently forget all that history when making your case. Doesn't have anything to do with it does it? You'd never advocate that would you? Somehow I think you'd love to roll the times back to where "everybody knew their place" - usually under someone's foot.
Requiring a public display of loyalty has always been a demand of fascists.
How many do you think really meant their Hiel to Hitler? But they had to make the public display or be punished.
If you were a German in that era I'm sure you'd be a real booster for the Fatherland.
It's a shallow loyalty though that is imposed by fear.
[ edited by gravid on Sep 16, 2003 07:23 AM ]
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CBlev65252
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posted on September 16, 2003 07:26:33 AM new
gravid
I remember the days of having to say the Pledge in elementary school. I also remember the ridicule those kids who didn't say it got. They were mostly Jehova Witness children. So very unfair!
Cheryl
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Linda_K
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posted on September 16, 2003 07:40:39 AM new
On the "hanging chad" issue....It's called a pencil and a piece of paper.
I'd vote for returning to that.  Much less costly than purchasing all these machines....that many complain don't work properly and some are now claiming will encourage/enable fraudulent voting.
"Don't they have more pressing problems?" Well....I think a $38B deficit is a pressing issue. An $8B decifit that needs to be dealt with *right away* as the CA constitution requires the budget be balanced each year....it's short by $8B *right now*.
[i]However, why is there such anger over all of this? Because a LOT of the people in CA believe the same way some of you on the left do about our President. They know they pay some of the highest taxes in the US already and that their elected officials won't quit spending more and more and taxing them more and more. I think the straw that broke the camels back was finding out that the decifit was much worse than they were told when Davis was running for re-election.
Some believe Davis pushes to pass legislation that favors ONLY his political donators. [surprised that politicians would do that? ]
There are also some that are angry about the illegal immigration situation that continues in CA. Now Davis went against what he had twice voted down....giving illegals drivers licenses....to gain support for voting against his recall. Same thing with the gambling situation on Indian reservations.
Just as those on the left accuse our President of 'wasting' the large surplus and taking our country into a large decifit, a lot of people in CA feel that Davis did the same thing in their state, only to support a ton of 'special interest groups', rather than the people of CA as a whole.
Why must this be made into a right/left issue? Most things in politics are left/right issues. Don't think that's going to change anytime soon. It's becoming more rare for there to be bipartisan issues decided on merit alone. Too many sticking strickly to their own party line.
I probably don't understand the urgency....The CA State Constitution allows for a recall of elected officials. Most states do not...you just vote them out next time if you don't like the job their doing. Davis was re-elected less than a year ago. The voters voted this into their constitution so they'd have a feeling of having some control about what their elected officials were doing.
One thing Arnold has said that I totally agree with is [paraphrasing here]: "Why should the people of CA be penalized by paying MORE taxes because the elected officials screwed up? They spend more then they tax more. We need to learn to live within our means." [again, not an exact quote]
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Linda_K
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posted on September 16, 2003 07:49:52 AM new
Yes gravid - I do support ALLOWING those who wish to show their support to the country they live in appropriate. I did support not FORCING anyone to do so if they objected to doing it.
There is a BIG difference. You don't want to fine....but now you and like-thinkers believe those who want to shouldn't be allowed to ....that's where I draw my line.
Throw all that other garbage you did at me and my 'mind-set'. It's laughable because it's not at all true nor how I see things. To me it's a right to be free to do or not do as one pleases in regards to this issue. And it boils down, imo, to your side not wanting my side to enjoy the rights they have.
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Linda_K
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posted on September 16, 2003 09:17:03 AM new
On CA law: for anyone interested.
Who sets the date of the recall election?
When the Governor is the target of a recall, the California Constitution requires the Lieutenant Governor to set the date of the recall election. It must be held between 60 and 80 days from the date the Secretary of State certifies that it has qualified, unless there is a statewide election within 180 days.
What determines whether the recall election would be a special election in the fall or a March election next year?
It depends entirely on when signatures are turned in to county election officials and how many signatures are determined to be valid. By law official signature counts are based upon the aforementioned 30-day periodic reports issued by county officials to the Secretary of State.
If the Secretary of State certifies no later than September 3, 2003 that the necessary number of registered voters (897,158) have signed recall petitions, then the Lieutenant Governor must call an election within 60-80 days.
If the Secretary of State certifies on September 4, 2003 or later that the necessary number of registered voters have signed recall petitions, the Lieutenant Governor has the option of consolidating the recall election with the regularly scheduled March 2, 2004 primary election.
[ edited by Linda_K on Sep 16, 2003 09:19 AM ]
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CBlev65252
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posted on September 16, 2003 10:17:48 AM new
CA is not alone in having a deficit problem. The city of Cleveland's deficit is $13.6 million (projected to be $51.4 million next year) and that's just this one city. (Can't blame this one on Dennis K). City jobs are being cut right and left. The state (last I heard) was $3 billion and growing. I know your $38 billion is much larger that that but consider Ohio is much smaller than CA. So, California can join the rest of the states in this union. Are we dumping our governor? Much to my dismay, no we are not. We just had a huge tax increase here and have to live with it. I guess you do what you feel you have to. It's your state and if you don't feel it's being run properly then go for it.
Cheryl
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davebraun
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posted on September 16, 2003 10:23:31 AM new
Alabama has rejected an appeal from their Governor to raise taxes in order to keep schools and other vital services open. They are now in the process of closing many public services including schools as they rejected his plea. As Alabama ranks in the lowest 10% academically nationwide I suppose it's no great loss. They will also be releasing non violent felons early and downsizing the state penal system. Police services and security will also be scaled back.
Republican, the other white meat!
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stonecold613
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posted on September 17, 2003 03:58:37 PM new
Here is what I think of the California thing.
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