posted on September 15, 2003 10:41:09 AM new
The Middle East is renowned for its hash and opium trade. Whether you or I like it, making and selling this stuff is a way of life for many there and has been for centuries. The U.S. is trying to get rid of all the drugs in Afghanistan and Iraq - a mini drug war, if you will, while they're in these countires. How do you feel about that?
posted on September 15, 2003 11:07:39 AM new
Oh boy, kraftdinner, I can just hear the tongue lashing I'm probably going to get over these comments! IMO - MYOB. Do I think this is a good practice, the selling of these drugs as a main source of income? Of course not. Do I think we should interfer? Absolutely not. What are we going to replace that source of income with? More American jobs? Quit concentrating on other parts of the world and start concentrating more on home. We cannot change the world and we must not shove our ideals down the throats of others. Since when have we become the cowboys of the world? Oh, that's right. I almost forgot. It's been since we've had a cowboy in office.
Cheryl
[ edited by CBlev65252 on Sep 15, 2003 11:08 AM ]
posted on September 15, 2003 11:52:48 AM new
As I have said before - if millions of people want to do something there is no point in expending great effort to change it.
What you need to do is change people so they don't accept someone who is involved with such things.
When a drug user used to be looked down on and not accepted as a member of the family it meant something.
Where I live now if someone is a drug dealer they are still welcome in people's houses and accepted as a friend. Their relatives still invite them to family functions and they just have no consequences socially unless they are a hard core user who starts to steal from them. That is true too often of people who do stuff like chop cars also.
As long as it is looked on no different from having a job at the auto plant what can you expect? And in Detroit 60% of the population depends on some form of public assistance for their living so what glory in plain old working?
posted on September 15, 2003 12:08:23 PM new
in some cultures,opium,hash,etc are used for relaxation,sex and medicine.
no better or worse than us consuming alcohol,it is a matter of what that song said-know when to hold them,know when to???
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on September 15, 2003 01:26:56 PM new
Gravid, In my opinion, the only way for this huge drug industry to end, is to end the drug war. Can you imagine how much money you'd have? You could probably pay down the national debt in about 3 months. Can you imagine how many dealers would be put out to pasture? How many murders and thefts would stop? I wonder how many jails would have to close? How many drug related jobs would be lost? How would legalization affect importers?
If people still choose to do drugs, just like they do now, they'll have difficulty finding jobs and keeping food on the table, but there will be so much money saved, that drug rehab, hospitals and Children's Aid centers, etc., will be able to run more effectively.
posted on September 15, 2003 01:43:27 PM new
kraft,
i am not sure people will agree with you.
parents sure dont want their children to try drug.
i have seen young girls get addicted -go to a party and get some freebies and before you know it,they are being exploited.
addiction is a terrible experience.
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on September 15, 2003 05:50:26 PM new
Wow - how did people keep their kids from all becoming addicts when the drugs were not even illegal?
I believe it was about 1900 - 1910.
posted on September 15, 2003 06:16:18 PM new
A safe-injection site opened in Vancouver, B.C. Canada today.
And it is quite a setting. Airy and modern, with individual cubicles discreetly divided for privacy, the clinic seems worlds away from the grimy streets just outside its front door.
Were it not for trays of needles and tourniquets at each seat, the spacious clinic, complete with snack bar and original artwork, could pass for an upscale salon or spa.
posted on September 15, 2003 06:31:36 PM new
The draconian drug policy of the past century has not worked. Drug use or abuse is at or near the all time high. Our national policy has helped spread both the HIV and HCV virus' to epidemic proportions draining much of the public health care system. It has also encouraged criminality both by creating a lucrative black market for illegal drugs as well as the crime which occurs from the pursuit of funds to pay for drugs. It finances both criminal and terrorist enterprises. A registered users program under strict medical supervision would save society billions of dollars, and much grief.
Republican, the other white meat!
Stopwhining, The only way to eliminate the drug dealers who are providing drugs to children is to decriminalize drug use. Right now, if you arrest all the drug dealers on the street, tomorrow new ones will take their place.
The "war on drugs" is a losing battle.
posted on September 15, 2003 06:50:00 PM new
Oh my god, I agree with Helen!
I've never taken an illegal drug in my life, don't smoke or drink. But I still think it should be de-criminalized.
Then you could buy drugs in a legitimate business operating in a free-market, competition-driven system like any other business. Prices would drop due to competition, safety would increase (I'm sure they would be heavily regulated) and almost ALL the bad points about drug use would be eliminated.
All the money spent on prisons, rehab places, drug enforcement and the like could go toward REAL needs.
Drugs are bad. But so are cigarettes, alcohol and McDonald's Burgers. Eliminate the sleazy dealers and back-alley dealers and most of the safety issues go away. The only remaining issues are addiction and behavior under the influence. Both of these problems can be addresses in the same way as alcohol addiction is right now.
-------------------
Replay Media
Games of all kinds!
posted on September 15, 2003 09:17:47 PM new
The war on drugs is an abysmal failure. An obscenely expensive joke. Sadly, I fear it's become a self perpetuating industry , and for that reason won't soon be ended.
___________________________________
I want to have Ann Coulter's babies
posted on September 15, 2003 10:13:10 PM new
And then there's the other side of the argument. Here's a site that takes a look at countries that have legalized drugs....and what the results have been.
The Experience of Foreign Countries and Drug Legalization
One country:
The Netherlands
Proponents of legalization almost certainly would cite Amsterdam as the drug Mecca of the Western world. Anyone may go into the restaurants in this city and order marijuana and hashish from a menu; further, heroin and cocaine have been decriminalized for all practical purposes. The police simply leave the users alone.
Consequently, health officials estimate that Amsterdam has 7,000 addicts, 20% of whom are foreigners.58 These addicts are responsible for 80% of all property crime in the city, thus necessitating that Amsterdam maintain a police presence far greater than those of cities of comparable size in the United States.59
The Dutch have not raised one dollar in tax revenue from drug sales, and drug violators account for 50 percent of the Dutch prison population, a higher proportion than in the United States.60
The Netherlands is the most crime-prone nation in Europe and most drug addicts live on state welfare payments and by committing crimes.61
Nationwide, the number of reported crimes increased to 1.3 million in 1992 from. 812,000 in 1981.62 Faced with public disgust at home over soaring drug related crime and pressure from other European Community countries to strengthen drug laws, Dutch authorities are implementing an aggressive program to reduce drug-linked crimes and disturbances and show new teeth in combatting illegal drug sales.63
Eberhard van der Laan, leader Of the Social Democrats in the Amsterdam City Council says, "People are absolutely fed up with all the troubles caused by drug addicts - car windows broken, noise, whole streets almost given up to the drug problem."64
Legalization advocates claim that marijuana use in Netherlands has not increased since the laws were liberalized, but the number of Amsterdam drug cafes rose from 30 to over 300 in one decade. They also fail to note that daily marijuana use by U.S. youth has declined by 75 percent.65
[ edited by Linda_K on Sep 15, 2003 10:18 PM ]
posted on September 15, 2003 10:53:48 PM new
7,000 addicts,???? Linda
approx 1/2 the number wich are killed by guns in USA each year.
Guns and drugs don't kill people.
kd "The Middle East is renowned for its hash and opium trade. Whether you or I like it, making and selling this stuff is a way of life for many there and has been for centuries. The U.S. is trying to get rid of all the drugs in Afghanistan and Iraq - a mini drug war, if you will, while they're in these countires. How do you feel about that?"
Now I thought US also had a 'history', including but not limited too, official involvement in the golden triangle and Colombia.
Remember the opium wars also (UK).
This phenomenon, over the centuries, has not been unique to non-Anglos.
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank my Anglo brothers for the world proliferation of tobacco.
posted on September 15, 2003 11:15:40 PM new
Great post Linda. It's a disaster in the Netherlands but the liberals want that kind of system here anyway.
It is funny Cheryl and Gravid both appear to want to legalize drugs, but both have said they don't want the dealers in their neighborhoods.... go figure...
So how would you both feel if a "Drug" store opened on your corner?
Wonder how those people feel about living next to that hospital in BC?
posted on September 16, 2003 04:56:28 AM new
twelvepole
Legalized marijuana, yes. Regulated and sold in stores (like liquor stores) where they are taxed like cigarettes and buyers must show they are of legal age, yes. Not regulated and sold by dealers who are selling more than just marijuana, no. I never said I wanted that.
The dealers in my neighborhood don't sell pot. There's not enough money or addiction in it. For the most part those that do sell marijuana are selling it laced with crack. They sell crack mostly and they themselves are addicted. They are the sickly looking ones in smelly clothes and the telltale bulge of a firearm in their pocket. Or they are the ones on the street corner wearing gang colors and acting smug about it. I'm not a violent person, but I wouldn't cry over one getting a shotgun up the ass.
posted on September 16, 2003 05:04:39 AM new
Ahhh I see, I have to get to know the difference, so Pot is the only part of "Legalized" drugs you want to support...
So how about that hospital in BC? Needles aren't usually used with Pot.
It will be really hard to legalize one type of drug over the other and if pot is the only one legalized, then those "people" down the street won't be going away.
posted on September 16, 2003 05:49:30 AM new
you can make a living selling pot without lacing it with crack,you just have to find and target the right audience.
downhere ,or anywhere in big cities,there are young girls who get fed up making minimum wage working for walgreen or sally beauty supply,they become dancers.
do you blame them?? get the most out of your assets before they turn old and flabby??
the problem is where do you draw the line,you may take pot ,then soon enough there is the ecstacy pills and cocaine and heroine and what else??
you cannot turn back the clock of time,go back to the old days where mom stayed home and dad worked and made enough for the whole family,sunday church and fried chicken dinner,watch tv in family room together??
how about wearing school uniforms ??
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on September 16, 2003 06:39:09 AM new
I doubt the dealers will be standing on the street corner selling pot if it can be bought in stores for less money. The Native Americans smoked "wacky tobaccy" for who knows how many years. It wasn't the pot that eventually did them in. It was us feeding them on alcohol.
IMO, parents rely too much on the schools for educating their children. I'm all for showing a child what a crack (or other drug) addicted person looks like and how they act. I used to go to bars when I was in my 20's to see a certain band (I was dating one of the members). I'd get drunk just like everyone else. Then, one evening I went to see them and I couldn't drink because of the antibiotics I was taking. Being sober in a bar full of drunks is an eye opening experience! I hated to think that I behaved in such a manner. I'm sure I did. Now, when I go to hear a band I like I might have one glass of wine or nothing at all. Sometimes experience is the best teacher.
The war on drugs is not going to be won. It's like trying to cure a stage 3 Cancer. Should have caught it at stage 1. Marijuana in certain amounts has already been decriminalized and is now a misdemeanor. It's the pipe that you carry with it that's a criminal offense. If pot cannot be legalized for recreational use, it should be legalized for medicinal use. Many an AIDS patient of ours smoke pot. It relieves pain and increases an otherwise non-existent appetite. It relieves the unpleasant (and I use that word mildly) side effects of radiation and chemotherapy treatments. Given the choice of Demerol, Percodan, Morphine, or marijuana for pain I take the pot any day.
I'm sorry, but it's the holy roller conservatives that keep pot from being legalized even for medicinal purposes.
posted on September 16, 2003 06:45:19 AM new
I wish I could remember where I read it, but it seems to me that a few years ago a state wanted to legalize pot... by the time the bill was done, it would of legalized ALL drugs from opium to crack...
It didn't pass
I too say legalize it for the pot heads, then legalize it for herion and crackheads...
posted on September 16, 2003 06:49:23 AM new
"Cheryl and Gravid both appear to want to legalize drugs"
I won't try to regulate behavior that can't be controlled. I don't like adultry either but would you be in favor of long prison terms for adulterers? What a boost to prison construction!
Just because you don't approve of a behavior does not justify pouring billions of dollars into a futile effort to control it. But then Ascroft and the others of the law enforcement community don't look at it from a cost / benefit view. They have a personal religeous based need to do right. More harm has been done by the determained righteous than any crazed evil doer.
posted on September 16, 2003 07:32:33 AM new
If you don't try to regulate "behavior" what was the purpose of you and BIL doing those things to an opportunistic entrepreneur?
Looks as if you were trying to regulate...
AIN'T LIFE GRAND...
posted on September 16, 2003 07:35:11 AM new
it is this idea-one thing leads to another.
if you smoke cigarettes,you may want to try pot,if you try pot ,you may want to move on to something else.
ever wonder why incest is a no no in most cultures,may be the ones who allow incestuous relationship died because the offsprings can no longer carry on the day to day chores of keeping a society functioning.
do you know in some parts of africa,the single woman can have sex with her brother in law to relieve her needs.think of it,which male in her family is safe to have sex with??
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on September 16, 2003 07:50:25 AM newif you smoke cigarettes,you may want to try pot,if you try pot ,you may want to move on to something else.
Give me a huge break! That is the oldest line in the book. Okay, don't eat a hamburger because that hamburger will lead to a steak and that steak will lead to prime rib and who knows what else after that. While I agree that those with addictive personalities may move on to something else, the pot is not to blame. Not one person I know that smokes pot takes anything else. And, there are a lot of them. In fact, the vast majority of them don't smoke cigarettes and never will. So, that theory went up in smoke a long time ago.
posted on September 16, 2003 09:40:37 AM newWonder how those people feel about living next to that hospital in BC?
The safe-injection site is not a hospital. It is a place where drug users shoot up and it is down on skid row where all the druggies hang out and live on the street so it's not like the average citizen will be living near it.
They interviewed some drug users shooting up in doorways and back alleys and not many expressed an interest in using the safe-site. They will be required to register first and they will be on video camera. There will be a strong police presence outside.
From what I understand there are 27 cities worldwide with 40 safe-injection sites. Australia opened one in 2001 and deaths have dropped 40%.
It is a pilot project and the thinking behind it is that it will help to control HIV and hepatitis and that they may get drug users into treatment.
I don't drink, smoke or do drugs but have had friends and family members that got involved with drugs and if one of them was using the safe-site and there was a possibility of them getting help I wouldn't object to it. I have my doubts about the program though.
posted on September 16, 2003 10:03:43 AM new
twelvepole
I was responding to the comment just above my last one which was about pot. Yes, I know there are other drugs and you well know I don't support them in any way, shape or form.
posted on September 16, 2003 10:41:31 AM new
setting up site like that is like cleaning up aftermath,clean up the existing debris now,does it really stop people from littering,creating more debris in the future??
the whole idea of why people use drug and why they continue to do so and what should the society do about it or not do about it is a big topic.
someone mentioned middle east-buying opium or hash is as simple and easy as buying your grocery ,you go about your work and then relax with that stuff,no different than the expresso coffee they drink during the day,
do you realise how strong that coffee is??
a long time ago.