moonmem-07
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posted on November 9, 2000 11:55:21 AM
Why doesn't GWB ask for a revote in Palm Beach county? I think that would show he cares about winning fairly. IMHO he would come out smelling like a rose whether he won the election or not. What do you think?
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njrazd
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:08:08 PM
moonmem...because there is no legal reason for a revote. The ballot format, which was designed by a Democrat, was approved prior to the election by all parties. Fairlure to read and follow directions does not allow for any do-overs.
This ballot format has been used successfully in California many times.
And I think if Gore were to concede if the electoral vote goes to Bush would be very fair of him. This threat of legal action if the vote doesn't go his way is pretty lame. Either there was voter fraud or there wasn't.
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That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
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Zazzie
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:12:45 PM
On the California Ballot is a 3rd party 'nobody' the second hole--or one of the major parties???
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jamesoblivion
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:18:57 PM
The object of the game is to become President, not smell like a rose.
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moonmem-07
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:19:38 PM
njrazd I don't think people are saying that the ballot was confusing on purpose, just that is was and a lot of people were confused. Don't you think Bush wants to win fairly? Gore should not concede until this problem is cleared up. And with all the Buchanan votes, obviously A LOT (around 20,000 people) were confused.
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moonmem-07
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:22:10 PM
Jamesoblivion I would hope he would want to know he won fairly.
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jamesoblivion
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:23:16 PM
Nothing personal, but that's naive.
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moonmem-07
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:30:10 PM
Jamesoblivion I agree it is naive. You probably have to be a liar to be a politician on either side. I just think that if Bush asked for a revote too, most people would be happy and this could be over. He could still win.
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snowyegret
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:38:12 PM
njrazd, it was an illegal ballot by the law here in Fl. The writing has to be to the left of the punches.
Counties supplying illegal ballots? It didn't happen here in my county, but if it had, I would be royally pissed.
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KatyD
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:39:12 PM
The ballot format, which was designed by a Democrat, was approved prior to the election by all parties. Fairlure to read and follow directions does not allow for any do-overs.
This is true, HOWEVER, the fact remains that the ballot does not conform to Florida law. So a revote would be one remedy. If it were to go to a court for a decision, one of the standards (according to an FEC talking head) would have to be whether the "will of the people was grossly misrepresented". And this "misrepresentation" does not need to be by fraud, in other words can just be a "mistake". But if it's found that the vote was a "gross misrepresentation" of the will of the people, one remedy would be a revote. Evidently, there are other possible remedys. I think that a vote that statistically represents 5 times the vote for Buchanan in the rest of the state, that comes from a predominantly Jewish Democractic demographic would point to a "gross misrepresentation". My bet is that any court will find that this is so. But we shall see.
KatyD
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Zazzie
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:46:50 PM
If Bush doesn't address the Palm Beach issue and takes the presidency---no country in the world will respect him as President of the USA.
If he does address it and still takes it---some of the world might not like him--but he will have everyone's respect.
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moonmem-07
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posted on November 9, 2000 12:50:54 PM
Thanks Zazzie! My thoughts exactly!
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Meya
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posted on November 9, 2000 01:36:40 PM
What I don't understand about the "illegal" ballot is, since the ballot was published in newspapers, and many people on both sides had plenty of opportunity to see it beforehand, why didn't anyone protest? It was ok'd by both parties, and published as per Florida law allows.
While I've seen many comments about the ballot being illegal, I've not seen that fact confirmed yet by any Florida officials. Of course, I've not read every single web site and article there is so I could have missed this.
No matter the outcome, the next 4 years will be tainted, no matter who takes the Office.
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njrazd
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posted on November 9, 2000 01:40:09 PM
If the Florida law was so specific, then how did it get by in the first place? It seems the entire group in the designing process were ignorant of that rule. A judge would have to decide if the format made it too difficult to understand.
Zazzie...I absenteed this year and I've already tossed all my voting information, so I can't tell you how the line up went this year. They are not always in the same order though, which is why every voter is sent a sample ballot to read before the election. Knowing the ballot is part of being an informed voter. In the 13 years I've been out here, we've had at least 4 different types of ballots. I haven't found any of them so challenging that you couldn't follow the arrows.
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That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
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njrazd
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posted on November 9, 2000 01:43:19 PM
My other questions revolves around Gore and the DNC. If Gore pulls out the electoral vote and wins, then everything is okay with them. If Bush wins, then they want to file a lawsuit over Voting Irregularities. Now, regardless of who wins, do the irregularities exist or don't they? Do they only happen when your candidate doesn't win?
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That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
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moonmem-07
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posted on November 9, 2000 01:52:38 PM
Njrazd There could have been problems before but so much hinges on this one. This election is too close it is going to be looked at carefully, more so that most others. I don't think you can blame that on the Democrats. A revote would make most people happy and put hopefully an end to this. We still need to take a look at the electoral college versus popular vote before the next election.
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snowyegret
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posted on November 9, 2000 02:00:51 PM
From what I'm hearing, the sample ballot sent in the mail there was different. And we had election officials on the local news last night who did say the ballot was illegal.
No matter who wins it now, they're screwed.
I do hope the constant irregularities in voting here are looked into.
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Meya
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posted on November 9, 2000 02:04:25 PM
I think it is not so much the electorial college that needs reform as the entire voting process. Each state sets their own laws, some can vote by mail, some do this, some do that. The overseas votes only have to be postmarked by election day, which seems strange, especially in a close vote like in Florida right now. They give those ballots another 10 days or so to arrive, which delays the count even more. Poll workers seemed to have been "undertrained", ballot boxes were left at polls, voters were supposedly denied new ballots when they realized they had goofed. Lets reform what really is broken here.
While Florida is a major player due to their high electorial votes and the closness of the vote this year, I wonder how many other states have "irregularities" as well that go unnoticed.
And why is Gore's count increasing so much? Most of the "experts", when talking about recounts, have stated that there is rarely much change in the counts. This recount seems to be showing otherwise.
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njrazd
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posted on November 9, 2000 02:04:44 PM
I just read an article at MSNBC that says this type of ballot has been used before in Florida in another County.
moonmem...amending the Constitution would only be a part of it. It would also require amending about 38 State Constitutions. And for the few times this has been a problem of electoral vs. popular (I think the last time was Kennedy/Nixon in 1960), I believe it affords us protection from nationwide fraud.
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That's Flunky Gerbiltush to you!
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moonmem-07
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posted on November 9, 2000 02:12:34 PM
There have probably been many problems before but nobody was looking for them. If this doesn't make us take a look at the whole voting process, I don't know what will.
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KatyD
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posted on November 9, 2000 02:54:11 PM
And why is Gore's count increasing so much? Most of the "experts", when talking about recounts, have stated that there is rarely much change in the counts. This recount seems to be showing otherwise.
Yep. And it looks like there is going to be another recount BY HAND (as opposed to a computer one, as is the current one) in 4 counties. With about 300 votes separating them, wonder what will show up with these recounts. And of course, this is disregarding the Palm Beach County ballots already in question.
Am I the only one who found Pat Buchanan's comments today so interesting regarding these Palm Beach County votes? He specifically said that he did NOT pursue that county in his campaigning knowing that there was not a constituency base there, and that it appeared that the high amount of votes there were not intended for him. In addition, he stated that he certainly didn't
"want" any votes not cast specifically for him. (Paraphrasing here). I just thought his comments were very interesting.
KatyD
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abingdoncomputers
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posted on November 9, 2000 03:00:49 PM
If Bush doesn't address the Palm Beach issue and takes the presidency---no country in the world will respect him as President of the USA.
And this makes him different from Clinton and Gore in what respect?
By the way, roughly half of the people who voted in the election would probably disagree with your statement. To win an election by playing by the the rules required by the constitution (electoral college) and approved by your opponent's party (the ballot) would seem very honorable to me. But of course honor just may go out the window when you lose (Gore/Democrats).
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Zazzie
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posted on November 9, 2000 03:14:38 PM
Losing respect once you are in office is a completely different issue than taking an office without any respect to begin with.
Gore was not in Monica's pants
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RainyBear
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posted on November 9, 2000 03:15:58 PM
This whole thing sucks. I'm not going to feel good about it no matter what happens.
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kiheicat
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posted on November 9, 2000 04:07:57 PM
No country in the world would respect Bush anyway, vote screwup or no... he's an ignoramus and the world already knew that, lol
Frankly I'm astonished that he got as many votes as he did.
But to answer the question at hand, THE reason GWB doesn't ask for a re-vote in Palm Beach County is crystal clear... because he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he would lose. Even a moron like Bush could figure that one out. 
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kiheicat
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posted on November 9, 2000 04:11:11 PM
And why does Clinton's name even come up in this conversation? Why do the Republican's with nothing else to drag Al Gore into the mud about other than Clinton's philanderings keep bringing up Gore with Clinton's name in the same breath? Surely you can come up with something to trash the man about on his own. That's what Republicans do best!
edited to add moonmem I agree...I would want to win FAIRLY.
[ edited by kiheicat on Nov 9, 2000 04:19 PM ]
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jamesoblivion
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posted on November 9, 2000 04:30:57 PM
Am I the only one who found Pat Buchanan's comments today so interesting regarding these Palm Beach County votes? He specifically said that he did NOT pursue that county in his campaigning knowing that there was not a constituency base there, and that it appeared that the high amount of votes there were not intended for him. In addition, he stated that he certainly didn't "want" any votes not cast specifically for him. (Paraphrasing here). I just thought his comments were very interesting.
Personally I believe Buchanan voiced this opinion [fact] to stick it to the Republican party (as opposed to saying it because he is so honorable, or something). There is no love lost between Pat and the Republicans.
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Nov 9, 2000 04:32 PM ]
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ubiedaman
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posted on November 9, 2000 09:29:38 PM
Right now..according to FLA election laws...ALL of the ballots from PBC should (or will be) thrown out...I have seen the balloat, as I am sure many of you have, and I know that I would be confused too!!!!..I am not a supporter(sp) of EITHER candidate, but there seems to be a HUGE irregularity here!!
Keith
I assume full responsibility for my actions, except
the ones that are someone else's fault.
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mommoo
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posted on November 9, 2000 09:37:57 PM
Florida Statues - Fla Dept of State
6) Voting squares may be placed in front of or in back of the names of candidates....
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on November 10, 2000 01:31:49 AM
I think we need to put the 19,000 PBC votes in perspective - IOW, look at whether this many ballots having been rejected for double-voting is a statistical anomaly.
My understanding is that in the 1996 election, 14,000 ballots were rejected for double-voting. So we need to know:
What percentage is 14,000 of the total ballots submitted in 1996? How many ballots were rejected in 1992, and what percentage is that of the total ballots submitted that year?
What percentage is 19,000 of the total ballots submitted in 2000?
If the percentages are the same or similar, the argument can be made that no greater confusion was caused by this ballot than the ballot used in 1992 and 1996.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Nov 10, 2000 01:54 AM ]
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