posted on June 12, 2001 04:36:34 PM new
I run www.genesis3d.com. We produce the most popular, open source game development software on earth. We currently have approx 1 million users worldwide.
We are in the midst of setting up a subscription based support site for our users and I need a credit card processing service to process subscription payments. Due to the volume of new customers we get, this service needs the ability to handle significant charge traffic (we've had 140,000 new users in the last 7 months).
So, can Paypal do this? Is Paypal reliable? Or, is there a better service out there?
posted on June 12, 2001 05:16:08 PM new The boards are not indicative of overall service levels and are often used by users to vent about an issue that has impacted them.
This begs the question...why are there these users that feel the need to vent on this board? If customer service handled our problems, we'd have no reason to waste our time here.
It's the ignored e-mails, contradictory instructions, regurgitation of the TOU, regardless of the appropriateness to our question that drives us here.
I'll close by saying this. I have been given misinformation, lied to, and repeatedly ignored by PayPal customer service. I came here to post as a last resort. I'm not sure what I thought the result would be, but at the VERY least, I'd expect an admission that PayPal did not do a good job handling my case, along with a sincere apology. These things are FREE to PayPal, and go a long way to smoothing over customer service problems. PPD and the rest of his co-horts cannot even bother to do that little.
With the volume Hootie expects to do, he is sure to have a problem transaction sooner or later. I'd hate to see him go thru the eternal b.s. that I have, That's all...
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 12, 2001 06:34 PM ]
posted on June 12, 2001 05:22:12 PM new
Hi purplehaze1967,
I can apologize for any issues you had going through customer service, but I am also going to point out that you had a problem with your claim because you filed it several months after the original date of the transaction. Our Buyer Complaint Process had a sixty day window for filing (at the time of the transaction) and you were around the 90 day mark.
Users come to boards to express their side of the story or to simply express frustration. As long as policy has been followed, there is no customer issue that can't be resolved. If we make a mistake, it can be corrected.
I come to the boards to close the loop on issues that may not have been handled properly and I get feedback from users. However, I can't deviate from policy on any customer issue.
posted on June 12, 2001 05:23:32 PM newThe boards are not indicative of overall service levels...
They do appear to be indicative of the quality of assistance you can expect if you are unfortunate enough to experience a problem.
...and are often used by users to vent about an issue that has impacted them.
As they are also used by company reps to try to minimize the impact of their poor customer service performance. Of course they are going to try to minimize the seriousness of those complaints- they want your business. PayPal is rated unsatisfactory by the BBB.
PayPal acts as a third party between the recipient and the sender of an online money transaction. Our file experience shows that PayPal has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to a pattern of complaints alleging that the company requires too much personal information in order to withdraw funds and that the consumer is unable to reach a customer service representative. The company responds to all complaints brought to its attention by the Bureau.
Date report issued: 6/12/01
Don't take my word for it- click the link below, and enter "PayPal" in the "Company starts with" box, then click on the "Report" button on the next page.
As far as I am concerned, that policy went out the window the moment I received this from PayPal rep 'Shannon':
> Subject: Re: quite poor (KMM7640420C0KM)
> Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:35:02 -0800
> From: Expectations- > <[email protected]>
> To: Rob <[email protected]>
>
> Dear Mr. Militzer,
>
> Thank you for contacting PayPal.
>
> I will forward the information needed to
> file a fraud report. The fraud
> report may be filed from the date of
> promised delivery.
<TOU snipped>
> If you have any further questions, please
> feel free to contact us again.
>
> Sincerely,
> Shannon
> PayPal Customer Service
Again, I'll ask:
1) Are PayPal reps directed to give answers that are later dismissed by other reps when the implications of these answers are deemed inconvienient?
2) Why did PayPal open this case, and 'investigate' for 2+ months before denying it, with the following untrue rationale:
> Dear PayPal User,
>
> PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy applies to > purchases for which payment was
> sent through PayPal on or after 8/1/00.
> Because your inquiry applies to a
> purchase made before that date, we cannot > reverse your transaction or issue
> a refund
It would seem that if PayPal did not intend to proceed on my claim due to me filing outside of the 30 day window, PayPal would not need from Feb 9th to April 13 to determine this. What was happening all this time? Why did PayPal lie about my transaction date? I think I know, but would love to hear your reasons...
You said:
If we make a mistake, it can be corrected.
I have just detailed TWO (2) mistakes PayPal made, with no correction at all. Hmmmm...
I have said before, and I'll say again, that most companies, after seeing the abyssmal customer service I have been given, would do SOMETHING to smooth things over. Maybe not a full refund, but something. Not PayPal.
It took this long to finally get an apology, which I basically had to force out of ppd. Wonder how sincere it could be, given the events leading up to it...
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 12, 2001 06:36 PM ]
The creator of the PayPalwarning site filed a claim for quality of merchandise (admitted to in these forums), which is not covered under the Buyer Complaint Process. The user also made several other errors, which created problems on their end. I did offer to post the letter to the user on the site, but they had declined.
Let me draw an analogy to my situation, so you can respond without fear of straying from the almighty TOU.
--- begin hypothetical example ---
You are married, and your anniversary is coming up. Mrs. PayPalDamon's favorite restaurant (Big Jim's Steak Shack) is a 2.5 hour drive away from your house. Nevertheless, you decide to take her there to celebrate. You have other committments that day, and those, coupled with the long drive, means that you probably won't make it there until 9:30 PM.
You call the restaurant, and have the following conversation:
Restaurant Rep "Big Jims...my name is Shannon, how can I help you?"
PPD: "Hi, Shannon. I was wondering what time you close on Saturday?"
Shannon: "9:00"
PPD: "Oh...that creates a little problem. You see, Saturday is our anniversary, and Big Jim's is my wife's favorite restaurant. I really want to take her, but I don't think I can make it by 9. Is there any way you can help me out?"
Shannon: "Not a problem...if you can get here by 9:30 we'll be sure to get you served."
PPD: "Thanks, Shannon...have a great day!"
So, Saturday rolls around and you arrive at Big Jim's at 9:25. As you walk in the door, you are stopped by Big Jim himself, and told that the restaurant is closed. The following conversation ensues:
PPD: "But I talked to Shannon on the phone, and she said that you'd serve us at 9:30."
Big Jim: "We close at 9:00, sir."
PPD: "Why would Shannon tell me 9:30 would be ok, if there were no exceptions."
Big Jim: "Again, we close at 9:00."
PPD: "But I put a lot of time and effort into this and..."
Big Jim: "See the sign on the door? 9:00."
PPD: "Well, I taped the conversation I had with Shannon, and brought it with me. Listen to it yourself."
<PPD plays tape>
Big Jim: "We close at 9:00."
PPD: "If I would have known that ahead of time, I never would have bothered to come all this way. But, since your rep said it was ok, I did. I expect you to make this right with us."
Big Jim: "We close at 9:00 on Saturday"
PPD: "Come on, be reasonable. I put a lot into this, and would like something to be done."
Big Jim: "We close at 9:00. The door clearly states this. Goodnight."
--- end hypothetical example ---
PPD, please elaborate on how you would feel in this situation, and rate the % chance you would ever eat at Big Jim's again.
thanks
Rob
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 12, 2001 07:02 PM ]
posted on June 12, 2001 07:09:49 PM new
More evidence, from the 'Feature Requests' thread:
Another suggestion I have is in concern with Customer Service. Without a doubt, it is the WORST I have encountered on the net. Long hold times, difficult to find phone numbers on website, evasive or non-responsive answers to questions posed, promises to "investigate and call back" never fulfilled, yada, yada, yada. The frustration created with such poor customer service really makes me think twice about using PayPal, and offering Paypal, as a verified Premier Business Account. I want better for my customers, and frankly, want better for myself!
For example, PP does not respond to inquiries in any specific manner when a complaint is filed or fraud investigation is initated. All I ever received were generic canned responses that did not address the issue at all! Very frustrating indeed. Good thing it was a "smaller" complaint vs. one when a lot was on the line.
1) Why did Shannon approve my claim, knowing full well that I was already outside the window?
2) Why did PayPal need 2+ months of 'investigative' time, if, as you say, it is cut and dried?
3) Why did PayPal lie about the reason for closing the claim?
4) Why have all of my further questions/requests/complains been met with indifference or roadblocks?
5) Why is PayPal 100% unwilling to do anything to smooth over this customer service fiasco?
Yes, I am aware that 30+ days had passed. I'll admit it any time, any place. I'll sign an affidavit stating it if need be. However, the rest of these issues remain untouched upon. I'll stay here on this board until they are all addressed to my satisfaction.
thanks
Rob
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 12, 2001 07:17 PM ]
posted on June 12, 2001 07:15:28 PM new
Hi hootie,
I am going to give a little insight onto the BBB rating.
It came about after we went through a period of extreme growth last year (going from 1200 users in December of 1999 to nearly 2.6 million by June of 2000---I believe the report came out not too far after that). This caused a tremendous strain on our customer service resources and often led to lengthy customer delays.
Since the report:
1. Complaints have been cut in half.
2. An executive has been assigned to work with the BBB on identifying areas where we can improve.
3. Customer service inquiries are typically resolved within 24-to-48 hours (more complex cases, such as Buyer Complaints and fraud, do take longer because of the investigative work involved).
A healthy percentage of the cases were the result of customer error (such as sending payment to an incorrect email address or picking the wrong payment option). Some of the other cases had to do with users being defrauded at another venue, but PayPal taking the hit because we were the payment medium (such as someone paying for an auction and being defrauded by the recipient).
Generally, on the community boards, you will come across issues that I attempt to resolve (if they have fallen outside of customer service). I would ask you to take note of the number of posters complaining about the service, while at the same time allowing for some leeway because they are relatively anonymous, and then dividing it by the overall customer base of 8 million (and the 200,000+ transactions that occur daily).
posted on June 12, 2001 07:19:03 PM new
Hi purlehaze1967,
You have admitted that you filed your claim after the period elapsed, which is an item that PayPal would have no control over. We would have received your claim (notified you), reviewed it, and then rejected it (notifying you again).
The department manager did advise me that you were contacted and that the email advising as such did do go out (very shortly after you initially posted your information here). I can probably get a copy of the email, with headers, if that will assist you.
There is no correlation between when PurpleHaze submitted his claim and the litany of errors in response to it.
They are two separate issues. You are trying to imply a link between the two; you are trying to imply PurpleHaze is at fault for the misinformation, tremendous waste of his time and profoundly inadequate customer service he received.
We've heard you repeatedly point out your customer's error (singular), but you continually sidestep the bigger picture presented in the posted correspondence.
In fact, you virtually dismiss it and this is at the core of your corporation's perceptions. I do not see value placed on your customer's time, confidence or privacy.
If, as you state, PayPal has agressively worked to fix the problems the BBB found, wouldn't the BBB have upgraded PayPal's rating? as long as the BBB says unacceptable, I'd have to believe that PayPal's customer service was, is, and continues to be unacceptable.
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 12, 2001 07:23 PM ]
You have admitted that you filed your claim after the period elapsed, which is an item that PayPal would have no control over.
Really? PayPal has no control over the (mis)information given out by its own reps? That is truly puzzling. Are they all independent agents, with no power to make committments for the parent company?
We would have received your claim (notified you), reviewed it, and then rejected it (notifying you again).
That should take no more than a week. What was going on with this claim from Feb 9 to April 13th? I'd surely think that a simple denial based on filing too late would not take 2+ months. This does not even take into account the false information PayPal gave me as to why the case was closed.
Sidestep away, PPD...
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 12, 2001 07:32 PM ]
posted on June 12, 2001 07:32:55 PM newYou have admitted that you filed your claim after the period elapsed, which is an item that PayPal would have no control over.
Hi Damon,
This customer was told by your own representative to file the claim. He would not have done so had your rep not told him to proceed. The situation is born out of PayPal's error, not the user.
For you to continually try to imply otherwise is deceptive.
posted on June 12, 2001 07:32:55 PM new
Mr. Purplehaze:
I do not appreciate you using my thread as a stump for your ongoing vendetta. Please start your own thread. I want opinions (pro and con).
Quite frankly your behavior invalidates any credibility I might have given your opinion.
I have looked at the various areas pointed to by others. I will take what I have read into account weighted against the details, situations and my personal assessment of the site's credibility. My particular situation is much different from auctions and much less given to problems from fraud.
Mr. Daman: My biggest concerns are arbitrary lockouts on any account I may have with you and ease of use for my customers. Some things I have read about your service in the more reputiable places causes me some concerns in these areas. Can you elliviate these concerns?
posted on June 12, 2001 07:37:26 PM new
PayPal seems to issue identification requests with great alacrity. In order for customers to regain control of their account they must fax in
Driver License Bank statement Credit card statement Phone or power bill
This is overreaching and an unacceptable encroachment on a consumer's privacy. It is one of the concerns of the BBB. Security is a good thing, but there has to be a balance.
PayPal's requirements do not even closely resemble comparable financial products and services, some with even greater security concerns (credit reports for examples).
I am sorry that my posts trouble you. I only wanted to point you to some potential trouble spots, so you could make an informed decision. I admit I got carried away, and apologize again for this.
I will respect your wishes, and retire from this thread at this time. I hope whatever decision you make fits you and your companies needs.
Rob
[ edited by purplehaze1967 on Jun 12, 2001 07:40 PM ]
posted on June 12, 2001 07:46:39 PM new
Thank you Rob, I do appreciate it.
Mr. Damon: Another concern of mine is customer support for myself and my customers. I will not deal with any company that subscribes to the ebay-like "fire and ask questions later" customer support style. I do believe that the potential size of my account to any service provider would merit very good customer service support.
posted on June 12, 2001 07:51:21 PM new
It should be noted that Damon refuses to address the issue in the threads PurpleHaze started. An intention to dilute the matter, IMHO.
posted on June 12, 2001 08:58:05 PM newI am going to give a little insight onto the BBB rating. It came about after we went through a period of extreme growth last year (going from 1200 users in December of 1999 to nearly 2.6 million by June of 2000---I believe the report came out not too far after that)...
An executive has been assigned to work with the BBB on identifying areas where we can improve.
It is now June of 2001, and the BBB still rates PayPal as unsatisfactory. At least they're working on it.
A healthy percentage of the cases were the result of customer error (such as sending payment to an incorrect email address or picking the wrong payment option). Some of the other cases had to do with users being defrauded at another venue, but PayPal taking the hit because we were the payment medium (such as someone paying for an auction and being defrauded by the recipient).
You're not saying that all those customers having self-inflicted problems went right to the BBB, without even contacting you, are you?
Based on many of the posts here and on other message boards, that doesn't appear to be a reasonable conclusion. What most likely happened was... the user contacted PayPal's "customer service" department, and after getting no response (or a totally inappropriate response), they gave up in frustration and contacted the BBB.
I would suggest that a healthy percentage of the cases were the result of customer service ineptness.
posted on June 13, 2001 06:36:00 AM new
Assuming that the original post is authentic, why would a business with such a large customer base even consider a personal payment service like Paypal, especially one that has such a poor consumer rating.
contact: [email protected]
posted on June 13, 2001 07:18:59 AM new
I think a very major point of the original poster's original intent was lost in the discussion. Can paypal handle a company that seems to sell not a product, but a subscription? Remember that Paypal's protection plan requires that the seller show trackable proof of shipping. How do you do this for a subscription service? Any buyer that feels like complaining will automatically get a refund at the seller's expense. After a certain number of complaints, the seller's account will be restricted.
This is not entirely a Paypal problem. I'm not sure how a "real" merchant account would handle the same problem. But a "real" merchant account would not restrict the entire account, even if several complaints were made.
