posted on February 5, 2001 09:04:20 PM new
Last year, one of my customers asked me to accept payment through paypal. I checked out the deal, read through their terms and descriptions and figured it sounded pretty good. But I did not like the idea of having to give them my credit card info if I was not buying anything. Well after a few days, I caved and provided the numbers. Anyhow things went good for a litle bit, I even gave them access to make deposits into my bank account. Then one day in August, I received an email from Bidpay telling about the changes in TOS at paypal. THEY COULD NOT EVEN TELL ME THEMSELVES!
Now they are saying that sellers would be liable to chargebacks, and they wanted whst sounded like full access to my bank account.
Oh, and by the way, remember that they said they would verify the cc info for payment that the seller was receiving. Well, from now on, the seller would be responsible. He** I don't even get to see the CC info.
Well, I quit paypal then and there. I do not accept it and I atate that clearly in my auctions. to date I have had one person tell me paypal or nothing. My answer was nothing.
Now, Bidville is going to pay me a referral bonus. So they send out an email saying that they want to protect their limit with paypal, would some people please take a check. I responded that I would gladly take their check, because I don't deal with paypal. The powers that be however decided that they did not want to bother with checks, so they sent me the money through paypal.
Alright, I figured, let me see if I can collect it. So I sign up again, and sure enough the money is there. So I try to get them to send me a check, nope!, not without giving them my credit card or bank information. but there was a note that staed to go to another page if you wanted a check without giving up your CC. So I went there twice. Each time I ended up at the login screen. Finally I emailed their customer service.
The reply I got was to send copies of utility bills, and driver's license along with a copy of this email to them via fax.
You know what Paypal? I SENT THE DAMN MONEY BACK. They can keep it before I jump through your damn hoops. You have no right demanding this personal information from me!
I sell things online and ask people to send money orders and checks to my address. That is good enough for them. But not you. you want to get your greedy fingers into everyone's finances. Well, not me!
I do not and will not accept money through paypal.
They lied when they said "Always free"
They lied when they said that they would verify the cc payments before telling you it was okay to send merchandise.
Why would anyone believe them when they say they can be trusted with your credit card information and access to your bank account? Surely the belief cannot be based on their past history of honesty.
edited to add some typos. Did not want to itimidate anyone with perfection!
[ edited by jimhhow on Feb 5, 2001 09:07 PM ]
posted on February 6, 2001 12:27:31 PM new
What really worries me is all the Paypal cheerleaders. They fall into two groups:
"Paypal is great because I have never had a problem and I will continue using it until I do." Sort of like "I smoke like a chimney and eat junk food and I will continue doing so until something happens."
The rest are those who are quite happy suckering their customers into signing up so they can try for the $5 bonus. They don't even realize that PP screwed them out of that with all the new requirements before the bonus is paid. A company can lie repeatedly and still get support all because of a $5 pay off. I wonder if all those folks getting off by paying millions in bribes realized that a lot of Americans consider $5 (or just the promise of $5) worth selling their conscience for.
posted on February 6, 2001 04:12:01 PM new
You forgot the last group of cheerleaders, which includes me. Those of us who admit that PayPal has made some really stupid errors but is working on resolving them, and maintain that PayPal is a viable payment option if users educate themselves and take precautions against the possible pitfalls. How many complaints would we be seeing if all sellers had verified their accounts, used trackable shipping, etc., and provided the info that was requested when problems arose, rather than cutting off their noses to spite their faces?
Admittedly, PayPal's idea of customer service is somewhere between pitiful and laughable. Having had phone contact with them myself, I've thought about applying for a job there, since I seem to know more about the company and how it works than their CS reps. That's probably the major area where I see a need for tremendous development, now that they're addressing the issues of verifying CC addresses and handling of disputes.
BTW, PayPal now requires that sellers approve all payments from users who have not provided their verified credit card billing address. It's a developing business, and they have some advantages over the other online payment services. Don't use them if you're not willing to take the necessary steps to do so safely. It can be done; it is being done. Some people would rather that word didn't get out.
posted on February 6, 2001 05:24:25 PM new
>> Those of us who admit that PayPal has made some really stupid errors but is working on resolving them<<
Why do YOU have to admit that PP made mistakes? It is PP that has to admit it. And so far I have not once seen any indication that PP is ready to accept *any* blame. Damon always tries to claim that it is the account holder's fault. The first step in resolving an error is admitting that there is one.
>> How many complaints would we be seeing if all sellers had verified their accounts, used trackable shipping, etc., and provided the info that was requested when problems arose, rather than cutting off their noses to spite their faces? <<
We would probably be seeing less, but that does not address the fact that a lot of the problems are caused by PP directly. By PP employees who don't follow PP's own TOU. I know verified sellers whose PP accounts were frozen because one lying customer claimed not to have received goods. The sellers were not asked for their proof. It took weeks of calling and emailing before PP even told them who made the complaint. Since you seem to accept this myth that the fault lies with the seller, tell me what YOU would do if your account was restricted because one of your customers lied and you weren't even given the chance to respond? Explain to me how this is YOUR fault.
>> I've thought about applying for a job there, since I seem to know more about the company and how it works than their CS reps. <<
This is the problem. Sellers are expected to put their business and reputation in the hands of people who don't even take the time to read their own TOU. I know it changes almost daily, but it's only a few paragraphs, so it shouldn't take more than a few hours to read it.
>>now that they're addressing the issues of verifying CC addresses and handling of disputes. <<
Yes, they have taken the step of verifying CC addresses, a whole year after we asked for this feature. As for disputes, all they do is get the money from the easiest target. That is usually the customer with the verified account. But they lied and said verification was for OUR protection, not THEIRS. Just like they lied about "always free," "you will never be forced to upgrade" and "we no longer freeze accounts, just the amount in dispute." How many lies does it take before you admit that they can't be trusted?
It is not like they're the only game in town. They're not even the cheapest. So why use them when there are other choices?
posted on February 6, 2001 05:36:53 PM new
It seems to me they started out good, and then the problems came in when they started changing things. And as far as everyone just giving up all the information that PAYPAL wants. There is such a thing as a constitution and a Bill of rights. I think that takes precedent over their TOU, TOS, and TOanything else. The real problem is people keep tryimng to force me to take it. Like it is some kind of official currency. It is not. As far as customers are concerned, I do not accept paypal payments.
When a site like Bidville wants to send me bonus money that way, it is no bonus, I'd sooner they keep the money then make me provide private information to get paid.
posted on February 6, 2001 06:02:58 PM new
The point is, PayPal is a sloppy badly run company with a pervasive attitude that the customer is not valued. Granted, this is a new business and they are having to deal with that, but cry me a river, most of this internet stuff is brand new, and I see very few companies with the major problems that PayPal has in forseeing problems and reacting to those that happen.
Is this who you want holding money for you - perhaps thousands of dollars and not legally obligated to give it to you?
Buyers don't know what is going on. You do. As a conscientious seller, you have an obligation to protect your buyer from being exposed to the danger of being ensnarled in one of PayPal's customer service nightmares. Not in general of course, but certainly in reguards to your own buisiness deals and certainly not without educating them.
You say that if you act to protect yourself, PayPal is OK. I don't believe it. As a matter of company policy of not caring about the customer, which I have not seen change yet, there will always be new ways you will be exposed to the possibility of major inconvienence, if not permanent loss of serious funds, not to mention reputation.
You the seller are the first line of power. If you say no, then the customer has no choice, but to turn to a more reliable vendor of electronic funds. It's no skin off their backs. You shouldn't have to protect yourself by tricks. If enough sellers say no, then PayPal will have to come up to the line just to stay in business and isn't that what we all want? A PayPal we can trust?
posted on February 6, 2001 06:37:28 PM newyisgoodIt is not like they're the only game in town. They're not even the cheapest. So why use them when there are other choices?
Gee, I dunno, maybe I offer PayPal because most of my buyers pay that way and my experiences have been very positive. Why can't I be a satisfied customer instead of being called a cheerleader?
Why do you offer PayPal yisgood? For the life of me I just can't understand how you preach and preach not to use them and I look at your auctions and you still accept PayPal. If you don't believe your own arguments how do you expect others to believe you? Aren't you able to close your account, can't you do what you are preaching others to do? Maybe YOU should answer your own question, "So why use them when there are other choices?"
posted on February 7, 2001 06:13:22 AM new
Uaru: Why do you keep asking the same question over and over? If you need remedial help, this is not the place to look for it.
Once again, (Maybe you should take notes or have someone explain it to you) because of Paypal's viral marketing and lies, there are millions of people who are not aware of the problems. If my auctions said "No paypal," these folks wouldnt bid. I would lose a sale and I would lose the chance to inform them of what is going on. So I accept Paypal credit card only, while sending them the link to my page. I used to get 8-10 pp payments a week. Now I get 1 every 2-3 weeks. But sales havent gone down. So I guess the message is getting there and folks have no problem switching to a reliable service once someone explains the need.
posted on February 7, 2001 06:58:07 AM newyisgoodIf my auctions said "No paypal," these folks wouldnt bid.
Let me see if I understand your 'thinking'. PayPal is bad and you shouldn't use PayPal, BUT if you say "No PayPal" you lose bids. So you've taken it a step further and say you do accept PayPal to encourage bids, and then you try and talk them into signing up with another payment service so they can pay you. Have I got your thought process down?
So when you warn other sellers about PayPal what you really mean is "Don't use PayPal, but you better say you accept it in your listing or you lose bids."
posted on February 7, 2001 07:15:33 AM new
>>Let me see if I understand your 'thinking'. PayPal is bad and you shouldn't use PayPal, BUT if you say "No PayPal" you lose bids. So you've taken it a step further and say you do accept PayPal to encourage bids, and then you try and talk them into signing up with another payment service so they can pay you. Have I got your thought process down? <<
You're getting warm. Let's see. Paypal suckered us into convincing our customers that it was good. PP said they were safe and suckered us into accepting it, only to find out after the fact that they will freeze our accounts or take money out of our bank accounts for THEIR screws ups. Paypal said "always free" and suckered us into accepting it and then hit us with fees. PP said "we will never force you to upgrade" and then slapped a $100 limit on us - forcing us to upgrade. Until recently, we were unable to reject payments. Even now there are some payments that we still cant reject. And even if our accounts are closed, customers will still send payments which PP will accept and then the angry customers accuse us of stealing their money. So PP put us in the position of practically being forced to accept them.
Some sellers have closed their accounts, put "No PP" in their auctions and report that they are still getting payments to their closed accounts, forcing them to get into an email snit with every bidder who doesnt read. Rather than do that, I will continue to "use" paypal the way they used me and spread my message on the coattails of their viral marketing campaign. Kind of like making cigarette companies fund anti-smoking campaigns.
>>So when you warn other sellers about PayPal what you really mean is "Don't use PayPal, but you better say you accept it in your listing or you lose bids."<<
First of all, it's not "what I really mean." I have stated this many times. I even have a page on my site, Using Paypal Safely. Use PP's marketing against them.
If PP can say "free" and charge, say "safe" and steal money from their account holders, then why can't I say I accept it and warn people not to use it? I'm just borrowing their methods. However, unlike PP, I am not lying. I do accept PP in a limited way, I just try to convince the customer not to use it. But PP still says "free" and isn't, still says "safe" and isn't. So if you're campaigning for honesty, why don't you start by asking PP how long they intend to keep lying?
posted on February 7, 2001 02:33:38 PM new
yisgood I just love your posts, and they help me explain to customers why I dont accept paypal. When my bank warns me about them not being FDIC insured I worry. Today I had a customer who was new to ebay that wanted to pay via paypal. I explained why I dont accept it, and included links. When she saw the WSJ article she thanked me. My goal is to protect my customers money.
