posted on January 4, 2001 03:54:31 PM new
The PTB at Yahoo Auctions were very surprised at the reaction and turnout for the chat today. I've been in contact with them in the aftermath.
There's another chat tomorrow... Friday, January 5th at 7pET/4pPT.
The questions that didn't get answered did NOT fall on deaf ears. They may not have been answered, but they were read.
Yahoo folks are not real good at understanding us, and frankly, we aren't real good at understanding them a lot of the time.
The thing wasn't 'scripted', it was real. That's just how they really talk. They do not have a human voice online, they speak in corporate epithets. They don't understand, but they are starting to a little...
It was not a waste today. Don't sit back and be pissed and not post in the chats. Post and tell them what you think!!! They are reading it, and it is having an effect.
After all the time taken to build a market at Yahoo, don't get pissed and stalk off until the final chapter has been written. Please. Talk to them, give it a chance. They might not talk back, but they are listening!!!
Regardless of how it may appear, the fat lady has not yet sung!
posted on January 4, 2001 04:13:19 PM new
Thanks for the great point of view. I have closed my auctions to make a statement but if Yahoo listens and takes our cares and concerns to heart I will be relisting those auctions and listing the stack I have beside me right now in a heart beat!
posted on January 4, 2001 04:22:17 PM new
During the chat today, Yahoo claimed that they were trying to attract new bidders by advertising in radio and in print. Well, in the new york market, I've heard their ads and those ads were stictly worded to attract NEW SELLERS.. NOT new buyers. Again, they claimed that they were requiring fees solely for sellers benefit. Come on now.. who are they kidding.. at least be honest.. then we can talk.
Majority of ppl are willing to pay some sort of fee.. fee that's based on performance
posted on January 4, 2001 04:22:41 PM new
Like you, I can't believe this will really happen as proposed.
YAHOO might as well close its doors to auctions right now and end the charade if they believe they can charge more than Ebay (who has so many more buyers) per auction.
Ebay, who has millions of viewers & buyers, charges $.25 for 10 days plus 10 more days free if item sells on 2nd time around. YAHOO wants to charge $.20 for only 10 days. Even with the automatic gallery that YAHOO offers, if the customer base is not there, gallery will not make a bit of difference.
Ebay, has lost many sellers to YAHOO, Amazon, and other auctions because Ebay is charging too much for what most sellers can sell and easily ship, and yet YAHOO wants to charge more and offer less. I find this amazing.
I participated briefly in the YAHOO "CHAT" today and could feel the seller's frustration (mine too) with the canned formatted answers. YAHOO representatives offered links to information that most serious sellers have already visited that offered nothing to the discussions at hand.
YAHOO asked for what sellers would like - other than $.20+ per auction. We responded for them to read the chat boards. YAHOO said they read these chat boards, but did not have a clue as to what sellers needed to sell.
Based on the number of hang-ups by sellers, mine included, I can't imagine why they want to talk again. I will not waste my time - unless they come to the table prepared to bargain in good faith.
I feel that Mr. BIG is sitting back and laughing at us sellers, while he sends flunkies to the table to keep us occupied until the tragedy takes place.
Until something changes, my plan is to leave YAHOO. I am not independently wealthy, and cannot afford to stay...
But like you, I will keep watching and hoping that something will change.
It is not that I don't think that YAHOO deserves money from me for running my auctions, I just believe that they need to get real on how much and when it is accessed. I would certainly agree to a FVF.
posted on January 4, 2001 04:36:10 PM new
Well HeyGrape~
I think your hollering has an effect. You seem to holler without being abusive, which is what they are more inclined to hear. You are sarcastic, as are we all, but I think they're hearing it. I don't know if it will do any good or not, but it's worth a try!
There were a total of 12 chatrooms active during that! We were in one of the 12. That's a LOT of folks turning out!
I can talk to them on the phone and through email and Messenger and it has some small effect. Having a bunch of people all saying the same basic thing in 12 chatrooms at the same time says a lot more. Having outspoken and sane people saying it helps even more!!!
I think they are beginning to realize they may have misjudged this. I don't know if they are ready to fully see the whole picture yet.
According to them, they've been thinking about this and talking about it for a long time. Of course, they live in Silly Valley, where some hippies put acid in the drinking water as a joke on a regular basis...
Imagine you work on a project with a group of peers whom you respect. You plan it out carefully over a long period of time and think you have it all figured out. Then you unveil it for the world to see, and the reaction is "What the #@%* are you doing?"...
Their reaction to that is... "But, you don't understand... we've been working on this for a long time! It's a good thing!"
And they hear back "You are a pack of steaming morons!!!"
That's kinda the scenario in play right now.
We all know that we know more about their business than they do. On the surface, it sounds absurd, but in fact, it's true! How do we convince them of that BEFORE they take the final plunge? With a loud and unified voice of hundreds of people who really don't want to see them do a Hari Kari right in the middle of the floor!
They think of us as reactionary. They don't understand our point of view. They don't understand their BUSINESS! They don't understand how to talk to us. They don't understand WHY THEY NEED to talk TO us instead of AT us. They have not yet fully realized that we are ALL in bed TOGETHER! The sellers of 'junk' and the buyers of 'junk' and the sellers they value most cannot exist without each other! That is plain and simple to us, they don't get it...
That's the one thing that ebay DOES get and it's really why ebay rules the auction world. They TALK to us better than anyone else, they pay attention better than anyone else, and they understand the relationship between users and how we all need to be in the bed in order for anyone to have any fun. As miserable as they are at doing that quite often, they are STILL light years ahead of anyone else, and that is precisely why they are so dominant in the auction industry. Actually, one of their top management people admitted that they finally realize that now.
Yahoo is completely clueless in that regard. We were all hoping they would figure it out, but instead, they are taking the path of all the Dead Dot Coms. They don't get it. Maybe if we scream loud enough, they will... Maybe.
posted on January 4, 2001 05:23:00 PM new
toyranch,
Thanks for the info. It's very interesting.
Yahoo has probably put a lot of work into implementing the fee system. At least some stock analysts have reacted positively (though they are clearly ignorant of the realities.) Anyway, it seems unlikely that they will totally scrap the system at this point.
And even if they did want to go to Final Value Fees instead, it would take months to implement. Months that Yahoo probably doesn't have.
One alternative would be to offer a given number of listings free each month, and then charge fees after that. This would only take minor tweaking of systems already in place. And the beauty of it from Yahoo's point of view is that they could easily manage their way to profitability by gradually revising down the number of free auctions.
posted on January 4, 2001 05:23:03 PM new
Count me in on the screaming. I am doing a little kicking also. I didn't work hard for almost 2 years to just lay down and die. I was there today and will be there tomorrow. You stated the whole situation so well. They don't have a clue because they are sitting behind the desks looking at their papers (as someone earlier said UPSIDE DOWN) and on paper it looks good. But those of us working it know They Are Wrong. I love the auctions and the people and I don't want to give this up without a fight!!!!! I don't usually have time to come to read these threads as I am busy crafting or listing. It's great to see such a great bunch of people fighting for what they believe in.
posted on January 4, 2001 05:49:52 PM newYAHOO said they read these chat boards, but did not have a clue as to what sellers needed to sell.
well, HERE's a clue - buyers! Is it too much to ask for them to just advertise that "there's stuff for sale on Yahoo Auctions" - ? For god's sake, not "get rid of your stuff" - people figure that out on their own easily enough. I promote Yahoo auctions in all my customer communications, you would think Yahoo would do some more of that.
FVFs. I would pay a larger FVF than ebay asks for as long as there were no listing fee -- up to 10%. I would also accept a charge for picture hosting, since I usually host my pictures elsewhere. That way Yahoo gets money for the use of that disk space.
On the recent listing order jumble - I have seen a lot of user complaints, they are unanimous - I have not seen a single user find anything positive in it, and I have never seen any acknowledgement that yahoo admits it was a lousy idea.
posted on January 4, 2001 05:53:35 PM new
I agree on the larger final value fee as well. I have written to Ebay a number of times suggesting they eliminate the listing fee and double the final value fee. For the most part--they would receive more revenues. But alas, they say the listing fee is to keep the "quality of items listed high". Well guess what, when Ebay has a free listing day I list EVERYTHING!! And you know what? My so called "low quality items" that start out at $1.00-$3.00 get more bids and end up higher than my true quality items. Listing fees do not make it financially profitable to list those type of items on a regular basis. Alas, this suggestion has fallen on deaf ears.
posted on January 4, 2001 06:24:49 PM new
Just give us 30 days Yahoo!
#1 Stop wasting advertising dollars advertising for sellers! WE can bring in all the sellers you could ever want for FREE! Advertise for BUYERS!!
#2 Kill the listing fees, but keep the option open.
#3 Charge final auction value fees of 2% or 2.5% across the board.
#4 Change the listing order back to the original time ending default.
#2 through #4 will start the money rolling in to Yahoo immediately and it will grow steadily higher each month!
#5 Tell the people that the 2% or 2.5% final auction value fee across the board will stay in effect until there is enough traffic and sales to justify raising it. This will show the people that you are a auction site on a quest to succeed! It will also scare the beejeebees outta egreed!
#6 Don't worry about "junk" or "quality" as you put it. Does it really matter what sells as long as it is bringing in the fees? You want to pump UP the listings, not cut down on them. Once you allow us to get those listings up to 2 or 3 million, egreed will raise their eyebrows and start sweating. Continue banning porno, guns, and stuff like that. Junk is fine, but stuff that could cause lawsuits should remain banned.
#7 Accept Money Orders, Cashiers Checks, PayDirect, Credit Cards, and personal checks from the sellers to pay their account fees.
#8 Leave the featuring auctions fees and other glamour fees as they are or even reduce them a bit. More people will use them and will net you more money in the long run.
Do these 8 suggestions and when you see that we are RIGHT, come back and we will let you know the next move. But then, we want to be stockholders. At that point it's time to show your appreciation.
What have you got to lose? With the course that you are on, your auction site will become a wasteland within 30 days anyway. Give us a measily THIRTY DAYS!
posted on January 4, 2001 06:25:02 PM new
toyranch -
I want some of what you are smoking - "eBay listens to their sellers!!!!!" Go over on the eBay board and tell them that! Now, going into my 6th year, I recall only once eBay listening to anything sellers said - most of the time, they do as they like, and as Yahoo did today, eBay sends in the Pink's to have a discussion, while all the while eBay goes right ahead and does what it wishes! Realize many of us are here on Yahoo because of the ridiculous decisions made by eBay!
REGARDING any response from Yahoo, in the past, since it was free, I just didn't expect anything, and that is what we got, nothing - pat answers to questions which weren't even being asked.
Personally, I don't have much confidence in any of these chats making any difference at Yahoo – I hope I am wrong.
WHEN AMAZON was at its strongest, they went off on some wild tangents - they didn't listen to anything their sellers said, and today they are "written on the wind." They could have been heavy competition for eBay - we sold there for 6 month and were running close to our sales at eBay, then they decided to make some major changes, and it has never been the same. In a month or two after that, most of the buyers left, most of the sellers had to leave to survive, and Amazon has never been a contender again. I'd hate to see this happen to Yahoo - BUT - charging to list - instead of charging for an item which sells, may be the undoing of Yahoo.
I think most sellers would agree to a Final Value Fee - but not a listing fee - it just takes too long to sell items on Yahoo to pay to do it - but I'd be happy to pay a reasonable Final Value Fee.
posted on January 4, 2001 06:35:26 PM new
Yup! I've been at egreed and watched the "pinks" sticking out their pompous chests! Ebay listens to us? ROFL!!! Yeah right. Egreed forgot who got them where they are and they have the nerve to call themselves a community? What rubbish.
And I was one of the sellers at Amazon when it died, fighting like mad with the others to save it, to no avail. All that effort and over 600 feedback in the dumpster.
They think we are peasants without brains. They seem to forget we are the ones in the trenchs.
posted on January 4, 2001 06:43:06 PM new
FACT: Yahoo arbitrarily came out with a fee plan.
FACT: They did not discuss it on a seller board of AW. I'm not aware of this being discussed on any other board.
For them to change what they've done is basically admitting that they goofed.
Yahoo will be swallowed by ePAY.
Fact. The only thing these silicon valley suits understand is COLD HARD numbers. They don't care about your expenses or business other than the occasional bit of lip service if you catch one out in the sunlight.
I wish more of you would understand this and CANCEL your auctions. You can always easily relist on Yahoo.
CANCEL CANCEL CANCEL.
Like they said in Network.
I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!!
Live it, love it. Send them a message!! Go to my I CANCELLED 68 AUCTIONS THREAD or any other thread, CANCEL your listings and tell the world.
Let them read that!!
I think a strong message has to be sent. If yahoo sellers go to other sites that currently offer no fees that they have to consult in some way with the folks they want to build them!!
Finally. I would've been happy to give Yahoo 5% FVF. Not a blip of complaint. I'd give them 10% if they offered some sort of support and maybe more if they really suceeded in competing with ePAY. I'd even pay a monthly seller fee if they came up with some reason to deserve it.
Listing fees have ruined what made Yahoo stand out from any other auction site around.
posted on January 4, 2001 06:49:01 PM new
To be honest, if tomorrow Yahoo claimed to change its mind and drop the 'listing fees' and impose 'final value fees' instead, I would feel like that was their plan all along ... and that they just played their loyal sellers like a fiddle so that their would be no objection to FVFs.
Once a company loses the trust of their customers, its awfully hard to gain it back.
posted on January 4, 2001 07:51:04 PM new
I closed all of my auctions yesterday evening on Yahoo!. Near 200, was in the process of listing more when the news came out about the stab in the back. Not even gracious enough to inform us first before the news media, thanks!
I was at two other sites also. Now I am at five, after todays work. Will join as many as I can find that are free. When anyone of them goes to fees, I will close that one down, and move on again.
Get used to being a gypsey auctioneer, and go with the flow. Get on with your life, it IS your life, not theirs. Don't be commited to any one site, or be concerned for them, thay are not for you.
You either bend and move, or break and fall. Learn to be resilient, and strong. Don't let any business keep you down. Just regroup, look around and make adjustments. Crying, bitching, and trying to change the minds of the educated ignorant will get you no where, fast.
They have never learned that the masses are more important than the millionaires/billionaires, as they depend on us to get all of their money from. They use us, bleed us dry, and kick us aside if the bottom line improves in the process.
Yahoo! can kiss my backside. I was living and doing just fine before I knew they even existed. In fact, I was doing fine before I got hooked on this computer and all of the hours I've wasted here. A lot of them helping a thankless organization of Yahoo! stockholders.
Even if you decide to try to save these morons, deversify anyway. If this hasn't taught you anything, I don't know what will. Never look to any company which has stock holders, as a source of your income. They will always let you down. You are not an asset to them, you are a liability, just like a hated bill they have to pay.
posted on January 4, 2001 09:36:37 PM new
For sure this incompetant business will never get my investment dollars. I was waiting around to see how this ad revenue plays out, wow, now know Yahoo is really flawed.
I won't pay FVF either, because Yahoo has never shown an audience that bids high enough to compensate for it.
If Yahoo can't beat ebay being free, how can they think they can beat ebay with fees?
\"It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.
\"
posted on January 4, 2001 10:30:23 PM new
This is tearing my heart out. This is the second time I've been through this. First time was Amazon. I was really a mess over that and you guys graciously took me in over here. I'm so torn up I don't know which way to turn. I feel like a jinx.
I know, even if they admit their stupidity and fix this mess, Yahoo is now forever flawed and it will take a long time to regain the trust and heal this booboo. But think about it. Egreed doesn't stand a chance in hell of EVER regaining my trust.
I just have to hang on another 24 hours. I need just 24 more hours of hope to hang onto.
posted on January 4, 2001 11:31:43 PM new
The way I see it Yahoo has some talented people who are trying to fix a very complex problem tho improve the bottom line. The have been working on all kinds of fixes and this is one of them. Unfortunatly they are only looking at one small part of the whole picture and they are having trouble seeing the overall cause and effect of their so called fix for their bottom line. We need to hammer home to them that if there is no business there is no bottom line only red ink. This is what happens when you get a bunch of people trying to run a large business who have very little business experience to draw on and do not see the pitfalls they are falling into.
1. First they need to understand we are in this thing together.
2. Second we are their customer. If we are not happy with the way thing are we will first complain and if that does not do any good we will look for somewhere else to sell.
3. To make this work we need to ba able to make some money.
4. To make this work they have to show a profit.
5. To make a profit we need buyers in large numbers to buy what we are selling.
6. In order to attract buyers we have to sell items that the buyers want at a price that they are happy to pay. (An unhapy customer rarely returns)
7. Before Yahoo can even think about charging fees they need to see what affect that fee willhave on both the seller and the buyer.
8. If the fees are at olne level it will probably drive the small sellers. At a higher level it may drive out most of the sellers large and small.
I feel that they must find a fee level that helps their bottom line but keeps most of the sellers on board.
9. Yahoo has to be able to offer something more to the sellers for this fee system to work for everyone. ie improved sales. The only reason ebay gets the money it gets is they have the best record of voluum sales in the market. For most sellers to be willing to pay these proposed fees Yahoo need to show that they can improve the voluum of sales.
I am just a beginner at this auction business but it seems clear to me that in a shrinking market raising prices is usually followed by closing the doors.
posted on January 4, 2001 11:42:40 PM new
Heygrape - if Yahoo has half a brain, they will take your 8 item list and implement it.
Charlie One you make some excellent points. It makes one wonder WHEN and HOW Yahoo was going to let us all know about the fees - and also wonder if they "accidentally on purpose" let it go live so that we found out about it and in turn the mainstream media got it from us. A planned leak?
As always the arrogance at these companies is incredible. They seem to do what they want and don't give a darn about the effect it has on peoples lives. Can ANY of them be trusted? They absolutely depend on us for their survival, but they feed on us as if we are cattle rather than working WITH us in partnership.
I, like many others, have worked incredibly hard trying to convince folks to come list on Yahoo, to diversify and try other sites. When something like this happens I really have to question WHY I do it? This just feels like another ebayesque betrayal.
This whole industry is based on trust, and it apears the ones we can trust the LEAST are the very auction sites we sell on. -Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on January 5, 2001 01:07:31 AM new"This whole industry is based on trust, and it apears the ones we can trust the LEAST are the very auction sites we sell on."
posted on January 5, 2001 02:05:29 AM new
It doesn't add up.
$200.00 item:
to list on eGREED = $3.00 ($2.00 to list + $1.00 reserve)
now to list on yGREED = $2.25 ($1.50 to list + .75 reserve)
eGREED = 50% chance to sell the first time - IF there are no site outages to interfere with the auction.
yGREED = takes average of three times listed to sell $200. items
For .75 more, I would have a better chance with eGREED (but there is NO WAY I want to sell there- not with their oppressive policies and numerous site outages) Just think I spent all Fall listing on eGREED and decided to come back exclusively to yGREED - and then I get the same eGREED garbage at Y
I just signed up with eDeal. Maybe having my own auction front is the way to go. I will be trying other sites too. Looks like I will probably need to dust off my resume and work for someone else (boy, will that ever be hard)
