posted on November 19, 2000 05:22:19 AM new
Just a reminder..
Have a buyer imploring me to ship via Fed Ex, says he will pay via Paydirect. Has fb of 4 from 4 sellers with 0 feedback - obviously a scam.
Scares me that someone would fall for this. The shipping on the wigdet alone would be over $100.
~~~~~
ps if anyone wants the id and the id's of the sellers leaving fb for blacklist- email [email protected]
The guy is relentless and becoming angry that I will not co-operate. I am concerned he will sabotage my auctions..
[ edited by VeryModern on Nov 19, 2000 05:40 AM ]
posted on November 19, 2000 05:51:28 AM new
Sorry to hear that you're having this problem. Just wanted to thank you for the offer of sending ID's to help others.
posted on November 19, 2000 05:55:53 AM new
Thanks yankeejoe, I have also turned them into Yahoo abuse.
Check this out. I say "no" he says:
>>>But I'm from Indonesia, I really really wanna buy this
item. I'll pay you all the shipping charge and only
via PayDirect cause I dont have another account. So...>>>.
posted on November 19, 2000 06:52:48 AM new
Tell him NO, because he's not eligible to have a PayDirect account. Then turn him in to PayDirect.
From PayDirect's TOS:
3. Eligible Users. In order to use PayDirect, (i) you must be an individual person at least 18 years of age and able to form legally binding contracts under applicable law, (ii) you must have a postal mailing address in the United States and a valid and active e-mail address, (iii) you must have a valid credit card, ATM/check card or deposit account with a U.S. financial institution, (iv) your mailing address must match the billing address for your credit card, ATM/check card and/or deposit account (as applicable), (v) you must be a United States resident and (vi) you must have an electronic Yahoo! Wallet.
posted on November 19, 2000 07:16:41 AM new
thanks vargas - I turned him in to both "abuse" and paydirect.
In dealing with him directly have taken great care not to incite him because I don't want 800 id's messing with my auctions. I am trying hard to fade away. He is probably working a dozen or 50 other sellers at the same time so I figure slip out the back door barely noticed.
posted on November 19, 2000 07:27:52 AM new
Why are you so nervous? Aren't you the one who keeps telling us how wonderful Paydirect customer service is and how responsive Yahoo is? Surely they won't let such a good supporter of theirs down?
posted on November 19, 2000 08:08:55 AM new
Actually I have never said that Yahoo was responsive yisgood.
I said that I called Paydirect with a problem once and that a human being answered within 2 minutes.
I do not have a paydirect problem today, I have a auction user problem.
I have written many many times that I feel the internet and specifically Yahoo is nothing more than the wild west. If I ship to this guy - it is MY problem, and my responsibility, not Yahoo's.
Plain and simple.
I am a non-deluded adult trading in the real world, and do not expect I can hold yahoo responsible for the conduct of 12 million users. I know the rules, I play the game, I take my chances and I never ever ever whine.
posted on November 19, 2000 09:20:27 AM new
>>If I ship to this guy - it is MY problem, and my responsibility, not Yahoo's. <<
Only because in this case, he wants it shipped to Indonesia. However, if he wanted it shipped within the US, you would just go ahead and do it. And if the card is stolen or even if it isnt and the owner just claims it is, it is your loss.
>>I am a non-deluded adult trading in the real world, and do not expect I can hold yahoo responsible for the conduct of 12 million users.<<
Neither do I. But I do expect that Yahoo should take SOME responsibility when they are the ones supposedly verifying these cards. But they are saying "If WE screw up, YOU have to pay for it." What is so hard about sending the seller the address of the cardholder and saying "Ship to this address only"?
Yahoo doesnt even kick off KNOWN CRIMINALS from their site, which is why almost every major auction scam has its roots at Yahoo. The hard drive seller who caused Paypal to change its terms was on Yahoo. The infamous Kuchar was kicked off ebay and set up shop on Yahoo even as the FBI was looking for him. George from Romania used over 45 Yahoo IDs. There is a reason why crooks gravitate to Yahoo, even with their so-called credit card validation.
posted on November 19, 2000 09:45:38 AM new
yisgood - I seriously question your ability to speak as an expert on what Yahoo does or does not do - did or did not do. If you want to know why Paydirect does not send a user's address, call them up and ask them.
As for Paydirect charging back because of a stolen credit card, you are correct. I would have shipped and so I would have to absorb the loss. The thing here that you always neglect to mention when ranting about how all the people on Yahoo can bid and buy for free is that buying goods on the Internet with STOLEN credit cards is a CRIME. The vast VAST majority of people prefer to remain on this side of the prison gate, babe and so I figure there is a limit to my exposure provided I apply a modicum of common sense.
Bottom line a MO can be forged, a check can bounce, and you may get a bad online payment and NONE of those things are Yahoo's problem. Just imagine renting space in a mall and blaming the mall when someone ripped you off.
Hell - they should shake down each person as they walk through the door, right?
posted on November 19, 2000 10:00:28 AM new
and last - I am approaching 2000 online sales and have had 2 bounced checks - both made good and so I gotta say the incidence of fraud is very very low.
$800 online payment? I may hold a bit. I would do the same with a check.
$40 online payment? I'm shipping, and I'll take my chances. Same with a check.
I am further protected by believing very firmly that the universe will return to me anything taken unfairly anyway. It is good to be VeryModern about things like this.
[ edited by VeryModern on Nov 19, 2000 10:03 AM ]
posted on November 19, 2000 10:10:58 AM new
I Agree this out of the country buyer is trying to pull a fast one.
I would my self send the item only if they paid me through bidpay or some other more sure method I wouldn't accept there credit card through any service.
posted on November 19, 2000 10:33:34 AM new
>>yisgood - I seriously question your ability to speak as an expert on what Yahoo does or does not do - did or did not do. If you want to know why Paydirect does not send a user's address, call them up and ask them. <<
I dont know why Yahoo has chosen to allow crooks to commit fraud on their site and personally I no longer care. But I will continue to warn those who dont seem to be aware of it.
>>As for Paydirect charging back because of a stolen credit card, you are correct. I would have shipped and so I would have to absorb the loss. The thing here that you always neglect to mention when ranting about how all the people on Yahoo can bid and buy for free is that buying goods on the Internet with STOLEN credit cards is a CRIME. The vast VAST majority of people prefer to remain on this side of the prison gate, babe and so I figure there is a limit to my exposure provided I apply a modicum of common sense. <<
So why dont you just ship as soon the the bidder wins? How can you apply common sense if Paydirect tells you that you have been paid and you have no way of knowing whose card was used?
>>Bottom line a MO can be forged, a check can bounce, and you may get a bad online payment and NONE of those things are Yahoo's problem.<<
I agree. Yahoo is not responsible for someone bouncing a check. But Yahoo is responsible when they accept John Smith's credit card for an account in the name of Bill Jones and then trick the seller into shipping to Bill Jones and then expect the seller to take the loss for their incompetence.
>>Just imagine renting space in a mall and blaming the mall when someone ripped you off.<<
If the mall handed out masks as customer came in and provided them with fake id and customers paid with credit cards provided by the mall, and then the mall tells me "too bad, the customer was a crook or requested a charge back, so we're not honoring our payment" yes, I would blame the mall. And as for a charge back, credit card companies make the customer explain the reason and then give the seller a chance to respond, so why doesn't Paydirect?
>>Hell - they should shake down each person as they walk through the door, right?<<
I'm not asking for a shake down. I'm asking for the common sense of making sure that the account matched the cc used and the cc address was sent to the seller. Billpoint does it, bidpay does it, merchant accounts require it, so there is no reason for Yahoo not to do it.
I would be much happier to know that if someone used my credit card to place a mail order purchase, the vendor would get MY address. I dont see how anyone except a criminal is being protected by keeping my address a secret.
posted on November 19, 2000 11:40:49 AM new
I disagree with yisgood again, some more, etc, blah blah blah.
Thanks for the warning about all these criminals lined up planning to risk their freedom and be pursued by the FBI for stealing my $25 widget. I believe I will opt out of shaking in my boots.
posted on November 19, 2000 12:09:07 PM new
>>Thanks for the warning about all these criminals lined up planning to risk their freedom and be pursued by the FBI for stealing my $25 widget. I believe I will opt out of shaking in my boots.<<
Once again your sarcasm is covering up the fact that you either don't understand or dont want to understand what is happening.
First, it is not illegal to charge back something. The FBI will not be called in. What happens is that the credit card contacts the seller, the seller shows proof of shipping and a decision is made. This is why most people don't just charge things back for no reason. However, Paydirect has decided that if someone charges something back, the seller will not be contacted and the buyer gets it for free. Since Yahoo makes it so easy for the buyer to get a fake id, the seller may not even know who the buyer is and Yahoo will not cooperate in releasing that information. So they have just made it easy for any bozo to rip any seller off with no consequences. Even someone who would never have thought of doing so might have a change of heart when they find out just how easy it is. Go to Yahoo's Seller Zone. Someone just bought an $800 computer and cancelled the payment after receiving it but before it was credited to the seller's bank account. The seller has given up trying to recover. Having used Paydirect, he did not deal directly with the buyer, so he is not holding a bounced check or anything else he can show authorities and seems to have no legal recourse.
I am going to stick with payment methods that give me some protection. With a check, I have the buyer's account (and I have never received a bad check). With Exchangepath, Moneyzap or Payplace, they promise to contact the seller first and give an opportunity to respond. Achex does not allow charge backs. Why use a method that basically says the buyer can stiff you at any time and you lose?
posted on November 19, 2000 12:32:46 PM new
Yisgood, you say that chargebacks are legal, which they are, but then you go on to describe a situation where someone charges back something fraudently just because it's easy.
I'm of the opinion that most people won't do this just because it's easy. Most don't do it because they have values and morals.
posted on November 19, 2000 12:55:33 PM new
I use Paydirect because regardless of what other services SAY they are going to do I do not believe they offer me any more protection than Paydirect which is NONE. I do understand, but you are talking about two different things. Is this person using a STOLEN credit card or charging back their own?
If a person is charging back their ACTUAL card, not stolen they are destined to run into at least 2 problems. First is yahoo's stated policy that funding your acct. with your credit card is separate from transaction where seller is paid, so good luck claiming this was charges in error. Assuming you succeed though, I will leave feedback what has occurred and this will hinder you to whatever extent. Now you will need a new id and a new credit card. Will someone bother? Maybe. But for an $800 computer not a $40 widget, and I have already disclosed that I am willing to take my chances on the $40.
Either way my point is a simple one. I am a seller on the internet and I assume some risk. Far less risk than the buyer for what it is worth. Obviously I have made a good bet, because I have not been ripped off in 4 years.
Lucky?
Maybe?
Or maybe I just know better than to accept an online payment and ship to Indonesia, or for that matter, accept an $800 payment and ship a computer. Bottom line, I am responsible for the choices I make. Crying to Yahoo is as fruitless as crying to the bank or the printer who printed the hot check someone sent you. Instead of wasting time like that when something like this occurs, perhaps an individual would be better served to look in the mirror and ask "how did I contribute to this mess", and "what precautions should I take in the future to reduce my risk?"
Callous to someone who has been ripped off? No. Just a realist.
If losing the $10, $100, $10000 is going to cripple you, then don't take the chance. If not, then history shows us that the incidence of fraud is very very low. I will reiterate that the Yahoo Paydirect rep told me that he had not heard of a single case.
The computer seller you mentioned...
It does not compute. How did the buyer cancel the payment after it was accepted? Uh.. user's cannot suck money from another user's account under any circumstances.
posted on November 19, 2000 02:24:44 PM new
Your right Pay Direct offers you as Much protection as PayPal only they are right up front about it and dont charge seller to offer this little to no protection. http://www.Dman-N-Company.com
posted on November 19, 2000 02:40:44 PM new
Thank you for posting dman. You are always the voice or reason around here and with a heart to boot. Your voice is appreciated.
posted on November 19, 2000 07:53:05 PM new
Good golly miss molly, never read so many ways to try and steal something.
I still go on the premise that people paying me thru YahooPayDirect are honest people.
And that my buyers are good people not all out to get me.
Of course I'm not selling the Castle!!!
I guess I'm just lucky after 4 yrs of selling both on Ebay and Yahoo, I have just never had this kind of dealings with people.
And I try to treat all customers as I would want to be treated...
All my auctions say Satisfaction Guaranteed,
and gee only had two people in all that time that weren't, and a refund was in the mail.
just my opinion.
Joan
posted on November 20, 2000 07:56:45 AM new
Trying to answer all the questions people raised...
Here is the story taken right from the Seller Zone. You can go there and email the poster if you want the details.
>>As far as electronic deposit times, PayDirect is averaging 8 days from the time you submit the transfer information. The longest we've experienced is 11 days. The bad part about this is that the customers think that once they give PayDirect the money then you should ship the product. DON'T DO THIS... We had a customer with PayPal submit payment and we requested the transfer and shipped a computer ($878.92) and the day after we shipped the computer we got a message from PayPal that the customer removed the payment. We never recovered the system or the money. We turned it over to a collection company but doubt that we will ever see our money. Make sure the money is in YOUR Bank before shipping products.<<
posted on November 20, 2000 08:06:35 AM new
I just noticed that. First he says Paydirect is taking 8-11 days to credit the payment. Then he switched to Paypal. Now I'm not sure which he is talking about. I'll have to get back on this.
posted on November 20, 2000 08:23:38 AM newWe had a customer with PayPal submit payment and we requested the transfer and shipped a computer ($878.92) and the day after we shipped the computer we got a message from PayPal that the customer removed the payment.
If the seller requested a transfer of the buyer's payment, it must have been made to a proper PayPal account, and the buyer would therefore not have the option of cancelling it, as he would with a "pending" transaction sent to an account not yet active. How exactly did the buyer "remove" the payment? Is that the actual term used ( "remove" ) in the message from PayPal?
posted on November 20, 2000 01:28:14 PM new
I just had a messenger chat with the guy who posted the message E100777 at yahoo. This is what he told me:
he received a "you have money" message, went into his paypal account and saw the money there. He shipped the computer. Right after shipping, he got an email from PP that the customer had cancelled the payment. He called PP and asked how they could cancel a payment that was already in his account. PP said the customer had called them and requested the cancellation. He said it wasn't fair since he had already shipped. PP said, "take it up with the customer."
So I stand corrected on two points:
1) this particular problem was not a Paydirect issue
2) Paypal is even WORSE than I thought
I recently had a long conversation with someone who works for a major credit card company. I will post some details on my page http://www.ygoodman.com/payments.html probably some time tomorrow. There are a lot of reasons why it is next to impossible for a service such as Paydirect to protect the seller. If credit card users know the rules (and the scammers do) it is incredibly easy to get things for free and there is little that can be done about it. The good news is that it is just as easy for folks who pay via these services and get scammed to recover.
posted on November 20, 2000 02:44:49 PM new
yisgood - I do hope you go back to ALL the boards you posted this on and correct. I clearly recall you singing the praises of paypal on these boards and you and I duked it out back then. You write prolifically as if you have authority and I am sure that plenty of people signed on with Paypal on your recommendation back then, and to their detriment as I am sure now you would admit.
This time you have been posting far and wide that Paydirect sucks, based on misinformation. I think it is only fair that you attempt to undo the damage. It is clear from your posts that you are trying to help, but I wonder if you think about the fallout from an error like this and if you will take responsibility and do the right thing.
posted on November 20, 2000 03:01:28 PM new
Very Modern.... Put that user on your Blacklist and remove him as the winner.
PayDirect is only for USA-USA right??
Just 4get this creep... very obvious potential BIG rip-off.
I would write to yahoo at least 4 times within 24hrs regarding this bidder, if I were you.... keep complaining.
posted on November 20, 2000 03:04:38 PM new
funny you'd say that gem. I just got a form mail back from them a few minutes ago..
I will do the bomb thing. Good idea.
